Thoughts on Panzergrenadiers

I dont like dmg reduction on rangers.
I'd rather less units have it, not more.

You are in luck, the modders agreed and is been removed from rangers. I'm not displeased, but if it was to remain no unit is now deserving than pgrens

You are in luck, the modders agreed and is been removed from rangers. I'm not displeased, but if it was to remain no unit is now deserving than pgrens

Pgrens are probably the most underused unit in the game. I can't think of one that is used less.

I go double Sturms some games more than I've ever thought about making a Pgren. They always end in disappointment, a costly squad that is fiinicky to use, and if you upgrade to shrecks they'll just get crushed and focused so hard it makes you regret that decision.

Pgrens are probably the most underused unit in the game. I can't think of one that is used less.

I go double Sturms some games more than I've ever thought about making a Pgren. They always end in disappointment, a costly squad that is fiinicky to use, and if you upgrade to shrecks they'll just get crushed and focused so hard it makes you regret that decision.

Which is why I had suggested the damage reduction as it helps where they are slightly underwhelming, but the changes in the mod look promising.

It needs some buffs for its underwhelming performance. I do not think the recent changes have improved Panzergrenadiers at all. It is just timing changes.

Performance needs to be looked over

It needs some buffs for its underwhelming performance. I do not think the recent changes have improved Panzergrenadiers at all. It is just timing changes.

Performance needs to be looked over

Go reread the changes then, specifically to vet1.

It needs some buffs for its underwhelming performance. I do not think the recent changes have improved Panzergrenadiers at all. It is just timing changes.

Performance needs to be looked over

Timing changes are huge. Look at Recon Support Company: dropping I&R Paras and the Greyhound by 1CP turned it from off-meta into a powerhouse that needed emergency patching.

PGrens also get a new Vet 1 passive.

I'm much happier they're slow-buffing PGrens in the balance patch than buffing them to insanity and slow nerfing them after release.

I really enjoyed the new pgrens great changes all round.

Timing changes are huge. Look at Recon Support Company: dropping I&R Paras and the Greyhound by 1CP turned it from off-meta into a powerhouse that needed emergency patching.

PGrens also get a new Vet 1 passive.

I'm much happier they're slow-buffing PGrens in the balance patch than buffing them to insanity and slow nerfing them after release.

It did not see the vet 1. At least as they are buffing them slowly and fit its role a Mechanised kind of unit.

Should G43 be an option limited by default for Pzgrens only. To give them an alternative in different kinds of engagements. I think it would be kind of interesting.

It did not see the vet 1. At least as they are buffing them slowly and fit its role a Mechanised kind of unit.

The timing change alone is pretty big. The brunt of the fuel cost might be in bp1 anyway, but not having to wait for your pios to get back to base and build the tech structure does wonders for pgrens impact.

And like lago said, so many different squads have had their arrival time moved up recently.

Make Sd.Kfz. 251/1 Ausf. A like it was:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-217-0494-34,_Russland-S%C3%BCd,_Sch%C3%BCtzenpanzer.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sd.Kfz._251

A OPEN TOP verhicle with 10 soldiers in it to carry around and fire out of it...

it would solve so much osts disadavantages and problems

Nice topic.

IMO, As wehrmacht really lacks well trained elite infantry, instead of reducing costs of this unit, it is better to improve their performance (even at the cost of higher manpower requirement), so they can act as a REAL elite squad in the level of shocks, commandos, paratroopers, obers and falls. I think its better to provide them a separate anti-infantry upgrade path, exactly like what panzerfusiliers got in the new commanders patch:

++ Infrared StG44 upgrade: provides 2 squad members with Infrared StG44 rifles same as spec ops obers, increases squad size by 1 (need reinforce, 90 mun maybe, disables anti tank upgrade)
++ Vet 3 bonus: +passive healing, increases survival chance

With this modification, production and reinforcement costs may be adjusted.

Here is a simple fix, make Ostruppen default unit. Currently that is the only chance for Wehrmacht.

Instead, give like what brits have "Bolster Infantry Squad" upgrade but for Wehrmacht it should be "Veteran Training" where the OH units performs better overall and decrease RA. This should definitely solve their problems.

Their units are utterly vulnerable currently. 2 SU mines can wipe a squad since each mine guarantees 2 kills. Vulernable to Arty. Yeah, so many complaints and issues. They need compensation like "Veteran Training", they need to perform better for lacking survivability. This applies to all infantry units for Wehrmacht.

Should be an upgrade available after phase 1. Cost the like "Bolster Infantry Squad" 150 manpower and 35 fuel. The ability should give better overall performance and decrease RA. This should be a fix. Fair and square.

Pzgrens currently are an improvement. Though I still believe their RA should be decreased. They still drop like flies. Vet 1 is definitely a good change. Still lacking however utility and anything in comparison to Obersoldaten. It should perform alike for that price. It performs currently worse than Obers (with MG).

OR give them better accuracy over distance should be a fix instead. Buff their overall accuracy instead be a nice change too.



Here is another idea for Veteran Training, kinda revamp Wehrmacht.

Through "Veteran Training" the following should be.

Pios get 5 man.
Grens all get G43, still have the option to get upgrade MG42.
Pzgrens better accuracy over distance and get smoke nade.

To make them perform better is a better compensation than giving them all 5 man.

Here is another idea for Veteran Training, kinda revamp Wehrmacht.

Through "Veteran Training" the following should be.

Pios get 5 man.
Grens all get G43, still have the option to get upgrade MG42.
Pzgrens better accuracy over distance and get smoke nade.

To make them perform better is a better compensation than giving them all 5 man.

If you mean g43s with the same profile as jli upgrade package, this would be absolutely broken, if not the same profile than are you suggesting a replacement for the commander ability?

Also, it is somewhat unfair to compare obers and pgrens, due to tech level difference. Pgrens arrive a lot earlier, imagine obers from OKW T1.

The way I see it, pgrens are useful mostly for protection from enemy infantry or tanks with their shrecks. If you want to use them offensively, you need to support them and have more than 1 squad(or a pio with flamethrower). They become a lot better with Ambush training, since their biggest issue is not being able to safely get to an optimal position to do the damage. Sprint and camo give you a lot of possibilities to use them effectively. The new vet1 ability also helps quite a bit.

Right now I feel like the reason people don't like pgrens is because you have to use them a lot more precisely and carefully than a number of allied cqc infantry, and it is difficult to fit them in a build, due to the need for atleast 3 grens at the start.

If you mean g43s with the same profile as jli upgrade package, this would be absolutely broken, if not the same profile than are you suggesting a replacement for the commander ability?

Also, it is somewhat unfair to compare obers and pgrens, due to tech level difference. Pgrens arrive a lot earlier, imagine obers from OKW T1.

The way I see it, pgrens are useful mostly for protection from enemy infantry or tanks with their shrecks. If you want to use them offensively, you need to support them and have more than 1 squad(or a pio with flamethrower). They become a lot better with Ambush training, since their biggest issue is not being able to safely get to an optimal position to do the damage. Sprint and camo give you a lot of possibilities to use them effectively. The new vet1 ability also helps quite a bit.

Right now I feel like the reason people don't like pgrens is because you have to use them a lot more precisely and carefully than a number of allied cqc infantry, and it is difficult to fit them in a build, due to the need for atleast 3 grens at the start.

G43 profile should be the same as what wehrmacht currently has as a doctrine weapon. NOT THE SAME PROFILE AS JLI,that is OKW.

Pzgrens do come earlier so what does it matter. Should not mean that for that price, should perform any way lesser or lacking in comparison. Sure, timing is a factor but it should not be the case. Everything has to be compared to price and performance. Timing should be independent of those 2 factors.

No wonder many things are unaccounted for because everyone has justified time with their current performance. I am saying that either buff Pzgrens accuracy or RA. Currently both are weaker than Obers accuracy and RA. That is what I am stating.

Should be near but not the same level. Pzgrens should be performing less than Obers but not far lesser than it currently does. That is the point. For its current performance it should be otherwise be 300 manpower. I do not see how it should be 340 manpower at all for the way it currently is.

If timing is independent of unit power and cost let's make shocks 0cp and no other changes and see how that goes

G43 profile should be the same as what wehrmacht currently has as a doctrine weapon. NOT THE SAME PROFILE AS JLI,that is OKW.

Pzgrens do come earlier so what does it matter. Should not mean that for that price, should perform any way lesser or lacking in comparison. Sure, timing is a factor but it should not be the case. Everything has to be compared to price and performance. Timing should be independent of those 2 factors.

No wonder many things are unaccounted for because everyone has justified time with their current performance. I am saying that either buff Pzgrens accuracy or RA. Currently both are weaker than Obers accuracy and RA. That is what I am stating.

Should be near but not the same level. Pzgrens should be performing less than Obers but not far lesser than it currently does. That is the point. For its current performance it should be otherwise be 300 manpower. I do not see how it should be 340 manpower at all for the way it currently is.

The doctrinal g43 for grens comes from the "Jager Light Infantry Package" upgrade, I wasn't talking about OKW Jager marksman g43. 4 g43s of this profile would be too powerful, especially if you can give them mg42 later, I do think that a lot of wehrmacht problems come from grens being really vulnerable, but I think that its mostly an early game issue, not late game. It's just a big problem to deal with all the light vehicles and infantry that is a lot better at close and mid range, if you screw up your placement a bit you will have to retreat, your entire force can get collapsed this way, then pushing out of your base is problematic.

Perhaps Pgrens do need a slight buff to RA or reduction in mp cost, but I completely disagree that balancing shouldn't take unit timing into account. The reason obers have to be as good as they are is not only their cost, but the fact that they come so late in the game. You also shouldn't forget that Pgrens don't require upgrades to reach their intended performance level, unlike obers, which aren't very strong without mg34. It is true that a camo upgrade really helps them, but that is a doctrinal, optional upgrade that doesn't increase their performance directly.

I think it would've been really cool for the new Wehrmacht commander to provide infrared STGs to PanzerGrendiers (since it fits the cross army theme aka P4 with side skirt armor).

Pzgrens do come earlier so what does it matter. Should not mean that for that price, should perform any way lesser or lacking in comparison.

Actually that's exactly what it means. Take the tech cost of pgrens and compare it to obers. As you say it should all come down to cost and performance. One of these has a much higher tech cost than the others

Pgrens are probably the most underused unit in the game. I can't think of one that is used less.

I go double Sturms some games more than I've ever thought about making a Pgren. They always end in disappointment, a costly squad that is fiinicky to use, and if you upgrade to shrecks they'll just get crushed and focused so hard it makes you regret that decision.

Man, team games really are a different beast.

In nearly every 4v4 game (not an exaggeration, at least 80%) if there is a Wehrmacht player, pgrens will see use, and about half of those games 2 will be used.

I get that things are different in 1v1 but pgrens are very common in team games.

edit: Ok so this is just anecdotal but I just went to twitch and I see Price doing a triple-shrek squad that can one-volley t-34s. It's just hilarious.

Though in team games, this isn't actually uncommon so eh.

Man, team games really are a different beast.

In nearly every 4v4 game (not an exaggeration, at least 80%) if there is a Wehrmacht player, pgrens will see use, and about half of those games 2 will be used.

I get that things are different in 1v1 but pgrens are very common in team games.

edit: Ok so this is just anecdotal but I just went to twitch and I see Price doing a triple-shrek squad that can one-volley t-34s. It's just hilarious.

Though in team games, this isn't actually uncommon so eh.

but sadly works only vs noobs....
pgrens with schreck will need minimum rang 20 to be effective and hit actuall the target. more range will miss the target to often.

this means you drive around your tanks with no view and no micro when you lose it to grens with schrecks
and when you clumb them togehter...allies have a ton of abiltys and units which work perfectly vs blobbs...for example a kat or a ISU...you will bleed so much..