Thoughts on Panzergrenadiers

You are truly amazing

You just showed how biased u are. You're basically agreeing with AE here? U want to gut pgrens and turn them into pure AT inf so the only inf Ost get are grens? While Ost doc inf is the worst: Cannon fodder, UP agrens, storms only in 15% of doctrines? You've got nothing to say now so you're resorting to provoking people.

People on this thread. I just can't believe their reading comprehension. To summarize, all I said was AE's idea was awful. Period. Several people are fighting me because somewhere they read that I want to overbuff pgrens. SHOW ME WHERE I WANTED TO OVERBUFF THEM. I stated clearly in post #26 that I want to decrease pgren pop from 9 to 8 after vet 2 or 3 and maybe a small speed buff alongside vehicles. A very modest buff. More modest than Miragefla's idea to reduce pop cap at vet 0 or other ideas like making reinforcing cheaper.

I'm going to blow your mind here so get a bucket or something. Alright? Ready for this? All the factions are designed to function differently! Wow neat eh? Notice how when a Soviet player goes for those 1min penals they give up any team weapons at all? No mgs or mortars or AT guns. Penals are good because of that CHOICE they make. Do I think they need toning down? Yea. But there is a choice there.
Brits Tommies ARE elite infantry because they lack it otherwise they pay 280mp for a static squad. Yes they are good and they PAY FOR IT.
Rifles, same bloody thigg they can sink fuel and muni into making rifles strong because THAT'S HOW THEY WERE DESIGNED. rifles are the core of the USF faction..

Poor Ost "only" has storms in 3 doctrines how many doctrines are commandos in? Paras? Rangers? Any non Soviet elite infanty for that matter? Far fewer. But that doesn't matter because Ost doesn't need them because they themselves have very potent infantry. Grens are some of the most accurate infantry around and can focus their DPS in the lmg. Pgrens are incredibly potent when they close but you have to utilize the combined arms design to do it well. Combine pgrens with a halftrack or mortar and they shine like nothing else

And finally I never said I agreed with AE and his design I'm just disagreeing with you that pgrens need some major buff to make them OP in a state that you can make use of them. Don't charge them across neg cover and try to figure out what that little yellow and green shield icons need and you will be just fine.

Pgrens have great dps and can engage from mid range out depending on their target. If they were any better they would be broken.

Uh, I'm gonna have to respond to your post. SU Tier1 doesn't need support weapons. U have aggressive penals for map control and sniper + clown car for clearing support weapons. Whereas T2 gives maxim,zis for map control and mortars for clearing support weapons. The only thing you're "sacrificing" for going T1 is a defensive style gameplay but otherwise T1 and T2 perform the same goddamn tasks. I can say by going T2 you're sacrificing an aggressive style gameplay. Plus allies don't need at guns early game since the only bulletproof axis light is Luchs which can still be fended off by any handheld AT. U don't even need to snare it. Just damage it and buy time until u get a hardcounter.

Ost has a lot of (weak) doctrines so having Storms in only 3 of them is like 15-20% of all doctrines while USF has like 7 doctrines and at least half of them have CQC doctrinal inf?

Uh, I'm gonna have to respond to your post. SU Tier1 doesn't need support weapons. U have aggressive penals for map control and sniper + clown car for clearing support weapons. Whereas T2 gives maxim,zis for map control and mortars for clearing support weapons. The only thing you're "sacrificing" for going T1 is a defensive style gameplay but otherwise T1 and T2 perform the same goddamn tasks. I can say by going T2 you're sacrificing an aggressive style gameplay. Plus allies don't need at guns early game since the only bulletproof axis light is Luchs which can still be fended off by any handheld AT. U don't even need to snare it. Just damage it and buy time until u get a hardcounter.

Ost has a lot of (weak) doctrines so having Storms in only 3 of them is like 15-20% of all doctrines while
USF has like 7 doctrines and at least half of them have CQC doctrinal inf?

You don't get any suppression or indirect with sov t1. Granted you don't usually need it if you play your penals/sniper well but it's a tradeoff. Don't pretend it's not.

Meanwhile ost gets pgrens nondoc. They're not precisely cqc inf but they're very cost efficient if you use them right, and don't require muni upgrades. Allies don't really have any nondoc analogues and brits and usf only have 1 combat infantry squad nondoctrinally. Asymmetric balance I guess. Volume doesn't really matter either since you only get to pick one commander anyway.

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Meanwhile ost gets pgrens nondoc. They're not precisely cqc inf but they're very cost efficient if you use them right, and don't require muni upgrades. Allies don't really have any nondoc analogues and brits and usf only have 1 combat infantry squad nondoctrinally. Asymmetric balance I guess. Volume doesn't really matter either since you only get to pick one commander anyway.

Ok. Lets go slowly step by step.
USF and UKF got 1 combat inf nondoc, thats true. But they also get more than 1 weapon upgrade (bars,brens,zooks,piats) and on top of that doctrinal buffs, making them very versatile if you compare them to their axis counterparts. Its not a disadvantage from a realistic point of view, its a trade off. Also they both come with T0, But only OKM has volks on T0 to balance axis/allied.

Now, about the cost efficiency of a well used squad, that sentence can be applied to any squad and I mean, any squad, even pios can displace any HMG if it is outside a building and it got flanked, combat engineers can secure a VP without loosing too much MP, and so on. Some units punish harder than others for such good plays, maybe that was the point you wanted to make and it would be pretty accurate, since once pgren are able to flank they do wreak havok in the frontlines and speciialy on team weapons, only full hp mainline inf can repel them. IMO Pgrens are not cost effective per se but only if a nuke grenade gets a wipe.

And finally Allies may not have nondoc analogues to pgrens and specifically not at the same level as pgrens, but UKF RE, a couple of conscripts squads and USF riflemen after performing a good flank can do the same job to repel team weapons and hit frontiles in a weak point.

Even if you add to the mix smokes, you could argue that results wont vary too much, the shock value of the bundled grenade is awsome on pgrens and that could be its best part, but all the prior mentioned troops with assistance of smoke are able to breakthrough at some degree. Again we talk about good plays and using cover each time its available. Therefore Pgrens dont stand in any of the 3 points you made.

Edit: IMO Asymmetric balance favours no one, but those who do adapt in the battlefield

You just showed how biased u are. You're basically agreeing with AE here? U want to gut pgrens and turn them into pure AT inf so the only inf Ost get are grens?

You trash my reading comprehension, and yet I already told you exactly what my stance was. I've posted it multiple times in this thread:

My opinion is that a 5 man idea for the stg squad should be experimented with, like a few people have suggested. They stay at 4 man with shrecks, or you can upgrade to a 5th man. Maybe give him a g43 if 5 man stgs ends up being too strong.

I'm not agreeing with A_E, I was commenting on the insanity that makes you feel qualified to trash one of the greatest guys in the community. He's not an authority on balance or anything, but you could try suspending your usual behavior for a guy who's done 10,000X more for the game/community than most of us combined.

Stop taking everyone's ideas you disagree with so seriously. You respond like youve been personally insulted everytime Ostheer doesn't get enough respect

Do you axis fanboys deal exclusively with absolutes?
2 grens/3 osttruppen and 2 PGs very early or HMG42 and PGs very early would be pretty much IWIN combination, suppress anything, mow it with PGs, rinse and repeat.

PGs biggest problem lies with their usability and difficulty to approach targets frontally without cover(which they shouldn't do, they aren't shock troops), not stats and changing timing to earlier pretty much warrants nerfs to performance.

They also are -NOT- a squad that should open the fight, grens or other unit should and get behind the cover, then PGs should move in.

So basicly wehrmacht have zero infantry units to take the inititive, they always have to play defensivly (which the brits still does way better). That makes them easy to exploit by decent players and thats why everyone plays OKW.

So basicly wehrmacht have zero infantry units to take the inititive, they always have to play defensivly (which the brits still does way better). That makes them easy to exploit by decent players and thats why everyone plays OKW.

Yeah lets forget that before the patch it was ostheer mobile def or osttruppen every game.

Yeah lets forget that before the patch it was ostheer mobile def or osttruppen every game.

If an army uses just commander callin units that is a sign the army does not have the tools it needs to function.

If an army uses just commander callin units that is a sign the army does not have the tools it needs to function.

BINGO! You just described usf as a faction. Seems thats the direction we are heading in. Next will be okw with pfusiliers. But your point in the previous post was that ostheer is easy to exploit because they always have to play defensivly. That is not true if you look at ostheer dominance in previous patch.

If an army uses just commander callin units that is a sign the army does not have the tools it needs to function.

That seems like too much of a blanket statement. I don't think people spammed JLI because OKW lacked good stock infantry....

That seems like too much of a blanket statement. I don't think people spammed JLI because OKW lacked good stock infantry....

And ass engies because rifles are thrash tier...

Make G43 and veteran squad lead be one ability
GD 80ammo size +1 and get 2 G43 and buff
stormtrooper and pioneer not change

PG have Combined Arms ability unlock at VET 1
repair unlock at VET 2
upgrade G43 unlock mark target ability

I think......

Make G43 and veteran squad lead be one ability
GD 80ammo size +1 and get 2 G43 and buff
stormtrooper and pioneer not change

PG have Combined Arms ability unlock at VET 1
repair unlock at VET 2
upgrade G43 unlock mark target ability

I think......

We could just replace them with the old stg and lmg34 Obers if the idea is to make it so no other infantry is needed or relevant on both sides of the battle. Might be easier

BINGO! You just described usf as a faction. Seems thats the direction we are heading in. Next will be okw with pfusiliers. But your point in the previous post was that ostheer is easy to exploit because they always have to play defensivly. That is not true if you look at ostheer dominance in previous patch.

Dominance? Every stream, every tournament game i have seen its always always OKW. Even the self proclaimed King of Wehrmacht Helpinghans is just playing OKW.

So basicly wehrmacht have zero infantry units to take the inititive, they always have to play defensivly (which the brits still does way better). That makes them easy to exploit by decent players and thats why everyone plays OKW.

When was last time you have "took the initiative" using PGs?
When was last time you've seen any streamer do it?

I could really understand your argument, if PGs were meta unit, but they are not and were never in the past after beta. They always were just an optional squad and more people opted to skip them all together or go straight for shrecks.

How many ost players actually use PGs as AI squad? 1%? 2?

If you are arguing existence of the tool - sure, its better to have the option then not, just in case.
If you are arguing usefulness of/need for the tool - meta was always exclusively about gren spam + MG/mortar/sniper and not at any single time over last 5 years PGs were ever meta AI choice, so from meta point of view, AI PGs were never needed and were just a vanity/variety option.

If an army uses just commander callin units that is a sign the army does not have the tools it needs to function.

What osttruppen offer, outside of resistance to sniper strats that base army lacks and needs?
Its not faust
Its not long range dps
Its not durability(grens are tougher in small arms firefights)
Its most certasinly not CQC DPS
So what do osttruppen bring to the table that ostheer so heavily lacks?

In case of mobile defense, panic puma is not something ost needs, its something that makes countering shock lights trivial, shreck PGs and teller mines were always capable of that.

Ost was never in soviet state of absolutely needing a commander to perform at any decent level, it was always about luxury choices.

If they didnt lose dps when dropping models they would be fixed.

To The Last Man is probably the most straightforward fix for them, yeah.

I think it would be more effective to give them an Obers IR STG44 profile. Giving them 2x STG44 and 2x KAR/G43/MP40 and concentrate most the DPS on the two transferable STG44s. That way the squad keeps most of its firepower until the last two models without sacrificing an ability for it, which is why it works so well for STG Obers.

I think it would be more effective to give them an Obers IR STG44 profile. Giving them 2x STG44 and 2x KAR/G43/MP40 and concentrate most the DPS on the two transferable STG44s. That way the squad keeps most of its firepower until the last two models without sacrificing an ability for it, which is why it works so well for STG Obers.

That's another solution to a similar effect.

I'd hesitate to give them IR rifles though. Jaegers proved how much of a nightmare ignoring cover on relatively early units is.

That's another solution to a similar effect.

I'd hesitate to give them IR rifles though. Jaegers proved how much of a nightmare ignoring cover on relatively early units is.

Doesn't have to be IR exactly, just buffed STGs that take weapon priority. It's certainly an interesting suggestion