Thoughts on Panzergrenadiers

He said pgrens should start off with only one stg. He NEVER said that they can be upgraded with 3 stgs later which will return the AI firepower to the pgrens

Oh no what a nightmare. He didn't cater to your unhealthy obsession with one faction. You don't have to like his idea, but maybe try not ranting about allies everytime you need Ostheer to get buffed

Oh no what a nightmare. He didn't cater to your unhealthy obsession with one faction. You don't have to like his idea, but maybe try not ranting about allies everytime you need Ostheer to get buffed

Where did I rant about allies? I just said his idea was a bad idea. I think u have an unhealty obssession of accusing me of being Ost biased.

Where did I rant about allies? I just said his idea was a bad idea. I think u have an unhealty obssession of accusing me of being Ost biased.

Meanwhile USF gets assault inf on literally all doctrines except inf company, SU gets 1 min mark penals which are on par with pgrens and Brits get non-doc 5man sappers which are extremely cost efficient that can take on upgraded grenadiers sometimes.

You brought up allied "assault infantry" while yourself stating that pgrens aren't even assault infantry. I don't care what faction is your favorite, you're allowed to have one, I care if its getting in the way of having a productive conversation everytime you make your point.

Like I understood your point LESS because of what you brought up. If pgrens are not assault infantry, then why are you bringing up the fact that US has commanders with Assault Engineers?

My opinion is that a 5 man idea for the stg squad should be experimented with, like a few people have suggested. They stay at 4 man with shrecks, or you can upgrade to a 5th man. Maybe give him a g43 if 5 man stgs ends up being too strong.

Urban Assault Panzergrenadiers could be incorporated into the game in a more AI-oriented upgrade for the regular PGs which gives them a 5th man and extra survivability (which is an upgrade for that squad original but could be integrated here) meaning that they'd have an easier time closing the distance but they'd be specialized in an AI role exclusively meaning that even if a LV shows up they're dead meat. No flamethrowers tho just for the record, or satchels.

That is a pretty interesting take on the Obers if you think about it but for the Ost, coming earlier with StGs instead of an MG34 lmg and K98ks and having a choice in what to do with them exactly instead of being forced into a path.

You brought up allied "assault infantry" while yourself stating that pgrens aren't even assault infantry. I don't care what faction is your favorite, you're allowed to have one, I care if its getting in the way of having a productive conversation everytime you make your point.

Like I understood your point LESS because of what you brought up. If pgrens are not assault infantry, then why are you bringing up the fact that US has commanders with Assault Engineers?

My opinion is that a 5 man idea for the stg squad should be experimented with, like a few people have suggested. They stay at 4 man with shrecks, or you can upgrade to a 5th man. Maybe give him a g43 if 5 man stgs ends up being too strong.

Bro you can't even read. AE wanted to completely gut pgrens by NO LONGER GIVING THE OPTION TO UPGRADE TO FULL STGS. That's a massive nerf and I was just saying that was a bad idea. When I say that pgrens aren't assualt inf I mean they're not "elite" assualt inf like the 10 pop doctrinal allied ones. Or else the only CQC stock inf would be pios which would be pathetic. AE calling pgrens "stock assault infantry" is unfair.

How is calling pgrens stock assault infantry unfair? They are designed to be the aggressive punch of the ostheer. The only issue with them is that they have trouble closing exclusively because of potent WFA designs which should themselves be toned down slightly. Closing with cover is extremely effective and if you load them into a transport drop them off at the enemy then you are set up for wipes.

If they didnt lose dps when dropping models they would be fixed.

AE, you're a great organizer and a very good caster but your Pzgren idea is as bad as your idea of replacing the TigerAce with the STurmtiger

AE, you're a great organizer and a very good caster but your Pzgren idea is as bad as your idea of replacing the TigerAce with the STurmtiger

In fairness to him, the Tiger Ace has been King of the bad ideas for quite some time. And I think some form of his pgren idea would be interesting as a doctrinal option

AE, you're a great organizer and a very good caster but your Pzgren idea is as bad as your idea of replacing the TigerAce with the STurmtiger

I actually like the idea of replacing Tiger Ace with SturmTiger!

I just said, 5man sappers are quite decent as assault inf. Soviets get 1 min penals. Learn to read, Katitof. And u still didn't answer my question: why do u allow allied fanboys to run wild on this forum, stating garbage like "Ost mortar was never nerfed" and "sector assault is still OP" Instead you harass much more knowledgeable members (than u) like Vipper on arguments you can't win.

No just no

Take a look at sappers RA and pgren/shock troop/ranger RA base and with vet.

Sappers drop like flies and receive no survivability through vet like actual assault inf at all.

No just no

Take a look at sappers RA and pgren/shock troop/ranger RA base and with vet.

Sappers drop like flies and receive no survivability through vet like actual assault inf at all.

Sappers have 0.9 RA for 10mp more than pios. With a 5man upgrade, they're ok as assault inf. Of course they'll lose to pgrens since even with the 5man upgrade they cost much less than pgrens. However, they can easily beat grens. Sappers actually do receive RA bonuses through vet.

Sappers [...] ok as assault inf.

In comparison to pios that is. Ands they should be, they cost more, arrive later and benefit from expensive, tech delaying upgrade. Let me remind you that volks also cost only 10 more then cons and utterly roflstomp cons.
Not so much in comparison to literally anything else.
And AI PGs do perform very well as long as you don't rush them in blindly over no cover against long range squads.

How is calling pgrens stock assault infantry unfair? They are designed to be the aggressive punch of the ostheer. The only issue with them is that they have trouble closing exclusively because of potent WFA designs which should themselves be toned down slightly. Closing with cover is extremely effective and if you load them into a transport drop them off at the enemy then you are set up for wipes.

So u want Ost to have grens as the one and only infantry while OKW get obers and very good doctrinal inf on almost all doctrines. SU get 1min pgrens called penals, and guards or shocks in most doctrines, USF/UKF get double upgrades to fight almost on par with elite inf.... while Ost gets the weakest mainlines, doc inf consists of cannon fodder, underpowered agrens, and storms in only 3 doctrines.

AE just lost a lot of credibility with his statement that Ost doesn't deserve better inf than grens.

U just highlighted why pgrens arent real assault inf. They have trouble closing the distance. Something shocks, rangers, paras etc. don't struggle with because they can take a beating with a combination of armor/RA/squad size advantage over pgrens. So how can anyone agree with AE's idea to completely gut pgrens when they aren't THAT potent in the first place??!!!

If they didnt lose dps when dropping models they would be fixed.

To The Last Man is probably the most straightforward fix for them, yeah.

Sappers have 0.9 RA for 10mp more than pios. With a 5man upgrade, they're ok as assault inf. Of course they'll lose to pgrens since even with the 5man upgrade they cost much less than pgrens. However, they can easily beat grens. Sappers actually do receive RA bonuses through vet.

RE recieved accuracy and vet was hit with a sledgehammer nerf at the end of 2017.

The issue I take with your point is that your saying RE count as assault units and on par in the same role.

They're not, by your logic OKW don't need obers as they have sturms.

Again post actual assault units (shocks, pgren, ranger) RA and compare royal engies. Grens stomp all over royal engies as they have great combat vet. Just because RE recieved accuracy is an inch better than rear echelon or pios that doesn't exactly mean they are on par with shocks.

AE just lost a lot of credibility with his statement that Ost doesn't deserve better inf than grens.

You are truly amazing

So u want Ost to have grens as the one and only infantry while OKW get obers and very good doctrinal inf on almost all doctrines. SU get 1min pgrens called penals, and guards or shocks in most doctrines, USF/UKF get double upgrades to fight almost on par with elite inf.... while Ost gets the weakest mainlines, doc inf consists of cannon fodder, underpowered agrens, and storms in only 3 doctrines.

AE just lost a lot of credibility with his statement that Ost doesn't deserve better inf than grens.

U just highlighted why pgrens arent real assault inf. They have trouble closing the distance. Something shocks, rangers, paras etc. don't struggle with because they can take a beating with a combination of armor/RA/squad size advantage over pgrens. So how can anyone agree with AE's idea to completely gut pgrens when they aren't THAT potent in the first place??!!!

I'm going to blow your mind here so get a bucket or something. Alright? Ready for this? All the factions are designed to function differently! Wow neat eh? Notice how when a Soviet player goes for those 1min penals they give up any team weapons at all? No mgs or mortars or AT guns. Penals are good because of that CHOICE they make. Do I think they need toning down? Yea. But there is a choice there.
Brits Tommies ARE elite infantry because they lack it otherwise they pay 280mp for a static squad. Yes they are good and they PAY FOR IT.
Rifles, same bloody thigg they can sink fuel and muni into making rifles strong because THAT'S HOW THEY WERE DESIGNED. rifles are the core of the USF faction..

Poor Ost "only" has storms in 3 doctrines how many doctrines are commandos in? Paras? Rangers? Any non Soviet elite infanty for that matter? Far fewer. But that doesn't matter because Ost doesn't need them because they themselves have very potent infantry. Grens are some of the most accurate infantry around and can focus their DPS in the lmg. Pgrens are incredibly potent when they close but you have to utilize the combined arms design to do it well. Combine pgrens with a halftrack or mortar and they shine like nothing else

And finally I never said I agreed with AE and his design I'm just disagreeing with you that pgrens need some major buff to make them OP in a state that you can make use of them. Don't charge them across neg cover and try to figure out what that little yellow and green shield icons need and you will be just fine.

Pgrens have great dps and can engage from mid range out depending on their target. If they were any better they would be broken.

I'm going to blow your mind here so get a bucket or something. Alright? Ready for this? All the factions are designed to function differently! Wow neat eh? Notice how when a Soviet player goes for those 1min penals they give up any team weapons at all? No mgs or mortars or AT guns. Penals are good because of that CHOICE they make. Do I think they need toning down? Yea. But there is a choice there.
Brits Tommies ARE elite infantry because they lack it otherwise they pay 280mp for a static squad. Yes they are good and they PAY FOR IT.
Rifles, same bloody thigg they can sink fuel and muni into making rifles strong because THAT'S HOW THEY WERE DESIGNED. rifles are the core of the USF faction..

Do you mind if I step in? Yeah factions are different and give different tools, that is true.
Why dont you mention volks vs pgrens? Maybe cost effiency is the weakest point of the latter, but dont worry grens seems to have it even worse in the current meta.
About USF, Yeah sinking fuel sounds like you spended 100+ on riflemen but its actually 40 IIRC.
Pgrens are quite expensive too, maybe the PAY FOR IT logic failed there...

Poor Ost "only" has storms in 3 doctrines how many doctrines are commandos in? Paras? Rangers? Any non Soviet elite infanty for that matter? Far fewer. But that doesn't matter because Ost doesn't need them because they themselves have very potent infantry. Grens are some of the most accurate infantry around and can focus their DPS in the lmg. Pgrens are incredibly potent when they close but you have to utilize the combined arms design to do it well. Combine pgrens with a halftrack or mortar and they shine like nothing else

Somehow comparing factions that have been since the start of the game with others added with DLC patches sounds wrong, maybe its because OST and SU have far more commanders that USF UKF and OKM together? I dont see any sense about it. But dont worry commander balance is a far more complex topic than a simple Pgren being UP/OP.

And finally I never said I agreed with AE and his design I'm just disagreeing with you that pgrens need some major buff to make them OP in a state that you can make use of them. Don't charge them across neg cover and try to figure out what that little yellow and green shield icons need and you will be just fine.

Pgrens have great dps and can engage from mid range out depending on their target. If they were any better they would be broken.

There is no real proof about that last sentence. Pgren pack quite a punch on already bad positioned troops. They are also the ONLY tool OST has in terms of shock/cqc nondoc troops. Its true that some reckless buff to pgren will make them spammable and blobable, but as they are now they dont shine that much. Maybe Pgrens are OKish and all the other specialist AI are OP, starting from Oberst all the way to assengies. But its worth repeating, pgrens pack a punch on already bad positioned troops but they lack of performance against other shock troops. If that is a wanted feature or no, im not going to argue about it.
Their only tool to compete is the bundled grenade.

The way i see pgrens now is as a versatile option having the muni to invest into 2 srecks to have a more mobile AT platform to counter LVs. Thats somethin they do pretty well.
Thats why also im interested in seeing them more and with tank support passives buffs

Edit: I would like to add, if someone brings up pioneer as efficient cqc troops, i would anwer this way. Nerf pios damage, buff pgren in exange. Pios are meant to serve as scout/engi troops, just that.

RE recieved accuracy and vet was hit with a sledgehammer nerf at the end of 2017.

The issue I take with your point is that your saying RE count as assault units and on par in the same role.

They're not, by your logic OKW don't need obers as they have sturms.

Again post actual assault units (shocks, pgren, ranger) RA and compare royal engies. Grens stomp all over royal engies as they have great combat vet. Just because RE recieved accuracy is an inch better than rear echelon or pios that doesn't exactly mean they are on par with shocks.

Yes sapper RA was nerfed from 0.8 to 0.9RA. 0.8 RA for 10mp is straight up OP. Still better than pios. I said 5man sappers are SERVICEABLE assault troops. They're not on the level of pgrens. End of discussion.