Thoughts on Panzergrenadiers

I think at this point Panzergrenadiers may function better as the old Stormtroopers. By which I mean starting with rifles and upgrading to StGs or panzerschrecks.

Splitting the panzerschreck upgrade into two might help pace munitions use as well.

This model would give panzergrenadiers a period in the game where they would help transition Ostheer out of the early game. They would mesh well with the standard grenadier and MG42 army composition before upgrading into new roles.

Their lack of a snare and LMG categorically sets them apart from Grenadiers and Obersoldaten. Their population cap may still need adjustment in this scenario, but the cost alone of the squad I think has always been prohibitive in upkeep.

Panzergrenadier timing I think is appropriate.

This option is also a passive buff for the G43 upgrade. No revamp necessary.

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I do agree that at the very least, Panzergrenadiers should get three "QoL" improvements:
- lower reinforcement time;
- Panzerschreck upgrade split in two (50/50 MU);
- popcap lowered to 8.

I think Pgrens are literally the most balanced unit ingame. Although balanced doesn't mean perfect, they're damn close. What I love about them is that, as opposed to grenadiers, their veterancy bonuses are swapped. Where grens get acc and RA at vet 2/3 respectivley, pgrens get their RA first to allow for closing in without dropping valuable DPS.

I think a lot of the reason players don't get them is due to the G43 access on grenadiers. G43s allow for highly mobile grenadiers but also bolster their CQC DPS substantially. They won't be beating rangers, but they can very much hold their own against closing squads. I think this causes no real reason to select pgrens over just getting another cheaper grenadier and tossing 45 munis into the upgrade. I think the G43 upgrade needs to be looked at as well, as I beleive it does too much for too little cost.

Pgren G43s are just redundant, unless it's overhauled like you suggested.

In cheatmod you can see how well rangers perform or even conscripts but you don't see them used often in the actual game. By the time panzergrenadiers come out, they usually have to deal with already vetted or even upgraded infantry and light vehicles which they are very vulnerable to unless upgraded with panzershrecks which makes them useless against infantry. And they cost 9 pop cap.

The only "elite" allied squad that comes earlier is penals, even then the sov player will have tech repercussions. Possibly cav rifles too but pgrens if you use cheatmod come out as the superior unit.

I don't see how they arrive "late" in your words when not even rushing them they are unlocked before your opponent even has AEC/Stuart/t-70. (Just watched a game from Jove where he had one as his 5th unit or so, PGA also rushes pgrens quite often and I've seen it work). I mean you can argue obers arrive late but pgrens... You can build them before allies hit 3command points, that's not late at all.

But of course if you go for heavy T1 with sniper, double MG, mortar and loads of grens etc etc until you need a Pak then of course they will arrive late. But the issue is between the chair and the keyboard here not the unit itself.

Personally I think the biggest issue with people's conceptions of pgrens is they don't realize how beast they are at vet 3. Usually people just waste them putting shreks on which is a noobtrap unless you need to push back Jackson or M10 etc.

But vet 3 vanilla pgrens are literal terminators, you can just run into engagements and win.

*Give to PzG some kind of buff when they are near tanks or halftracks;

*shreks upgrade after T3 research.

As a player who almost always plays WM with PGrens (in a T2 rush strategy), I would say that putting them in the HQ after BP1 might be a bit too much.

I would propose the following changes:

- "Fire up" sprint ability, incurs a penalty on movement speed after ability duration.
- Slightly readjusting veterancy, so that the massive powerspike they receive at Vet 2 is partially transferred to Vet 1.

Not to say that my opinions are more accurate but I've extensive Ost experience in 1v1 and 2v2. I also like to go for an mg,pio T2 rush. "Fire up" is already in several doctrines and vet was already adjusted to allow scaling between vet 0 and 2.

The problems with a T1 skip is that your mainlines are now pgrens and getting more than 2 squads of them is quite painful for the pop cap. What does OKW get for 9 pop: Obers: 0.7 RA for a long range unit vs 0.8 for a short-mid range unit, hence far better survivability, 5 levels of vet, toxic smoke grenade. Falls are also 9pop and get 0.83 RA for long range unit, toxic smoke nade, camo, faust, and 5 levels of COMBAT vet. Both units are significantly better than pgrens. Pgrens are comfortably beaten by allied elite troops like thompson rangers and shocks which are both 10 pop and much more than just 10% better than pgrens. Double upgraded WFA mainlines are also much more cost efficient. Double bar rifles easily push back pgrens at long range and pgrens cannot afford to close in on them. 7 pop easily beating 9 pop. Pgrens only draw even with double bars at midrange. Also pgrens lose at point blank vs double bars oddly enough, probably due to the loss of RA at point blank. Pgrens are a joke to 5man IS with brens. 8 pop easily beating 9 pop.

The solution is to reduce pop cap to 8 at vet 2 or 3. It wouldn't be fair to spam pgrens as mainlines, but people with good unit preservation should be rewarded and have a lower upkeep cost since these pgrens are in most scenarios overpopcapped.

The G43 upgrade is LITERALLY pointless. I can't think of a more worthless upgrade. Nobody ever gets them. They're simply not good enough of a long range upgrade when u can just get cheaper grens that actually have a faust. I suggest either giving 4 g43s or giving the g43 the ability to crit models like JLI/pathfinders. After all, g43 pgrens are more expensive and come later than both of these squads.

*Give to PzG some kind of buff when they are near tanks or halftracks;

*shreks upgrade after T3 research.

I've always advocated for panzergrens to actually behave like PANZERgrens. It seems the balance team has finally incorporated some of those in the veteran squad leader doctrine. Some sort of accuracy or speed buff would be nice beside armor. An epic idea would allow pgrens to ride on the back of tanks, providing green cover with the tradeoff that if a tank flanks their tank and shoots, the pgrens will suffer alot as they get splattered against their own tank.

The G43 does not have to an upgrade for PG. Even the ability is not called g43 but "jaeger light infatry upgrade" and it can provide different bonuses to different infatry.

I've always advocated for panzergrens to actually behave like PANZERgrens.

+1

This will give more "flavor" to them.

I think a lot of the reason players don't get them is due to the G43 access on grenadiers. G43s allow for highly mobile grenadiers but also bolster their CQC DPS substantially. They won't be beating rangers, but they can very much hold their own against closing squads. I think this causes no real reason to select pgrens over just getting another cheaper grenadier and tossing 45 munis into the upgrade. I think the G43 upgrade needs to be looked at as well, as I beleive it does too much for too little cost.

I don't think its G43s for Grenadiers who arguably do the short-mid range much worse with LMGs being a much better investment on most maps for the long term. As I have stated, LMGs are much easier to use in most cases and others have mentioned the high concentration of DPS and not needing to close makes Grenadiers a good option in most cases, even if it costs munitions over manpower.

On five man, I feel that while it does offer the rare 5 men to Ostheer, the change in DPS might be too much? And I'm always iffy on the single schreck because unlike Sturmpioneers, Panzergrenadiers get their important combat vet sooner and their StGs are better.

I do enjoy seeing what other people have to say on the unit.

By definition, panzer grenadiers are a mechanized infantry, so it has to have any relation with mechanized corps, that's why he is behind tech 2 where there are light vehicles.

The G43 does not have to an upgrade for PG. Even the ability is not called g43 but "jaeger light infatry upgrade" and it can provide different bonuses to different infatry.

Interesting, maybe give PG IR STG upgrade instead?

I think the upgrade package from infantry commander should be default for all pgrens no matter what commander. The speed bonus and extra defense makes them actually be able to get to good positions before losing a model. Everyone forgets that losing a pgren model is much worse than losing a grenadier model since grenadiers main dps is from the mg42 which will travel around in the squad if they have casualties. Pgrens lose 25% dps with 1 model loss.

I think the upgrade package from infantry commander should be default for all pgrens no matter what commander. The speed bonus and extra defense makes them actually be able to get to good positions before losing a model. Everyone forgets that losing a pgren model is much worse than losing a grenadier model since grenadiers main dps is from the mg42 which will travel around in the squad if they have casualties. Pgrens lose 25% dps with 1 model loss.

This, I already said that pgren upgrade from infantry commander should become stock.

Imo the only problem with Pgrens is the timing. As a unit they're very strong. 34 manpower or whatever it is to reinforce gets you an STG model with .8 RA which makes them one of the best bangs for your buck in the game, but good luck recouping that 340 up front investment during the armored stages of the game.

I think the t2 building cost is what actually needs to be re-evaluated. You've already spent 100 manpower on the battle phase. Another 200 manpower and having to pull pios off the field is just too much. You'll get pushed off the map with just 3x grens. A 4th gren gets you much better field presence while teching, but you're too infantry heavy for another squad at that point. Cut 100 manpower off the t2 building. Adjust the 222 and halftrack costs. PaKs can probably stay the same though as I think they have the same problem as the Pgrens.