jli are still op close range too as the 75%crit is too strong
Pretty sure that'll be the 3 kar98s at 16 damage a shot, since the scoped G43 can hit shit at that range.
did shock troops need the buff?
13 Mar 2019, 20:51 PM
#21
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
Pretty sure that'll be the 3 kar98s at 16 damage a shot, since the scoped G43 can hit shit at that range.
13 Mar 2019, 21:24 PM
#22
Posts: 4474
it makes up with faster reload and fire time
Pretty sure that'll be the 3 kar98s at 16 damage a shot, since the scoped G43 can hit shit at that range.
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
13 Mar 2019, 21:54 PM
#23
Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4
it makes up with faster reload and fire time
Reload doesn't change based on distance. The fire time does, but still don't think it's blasting away models with a change from 0.92 mid acc to 0.575, even if aim time goes to 2.25 secs from 3.
13 Mar 2019, 22:19 PM
#24
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
You keep throwing out the word without seemingly to know its connotations. How are Shocks OP in any form even now? They still don't want to fight at mid-range as it means other units can be brought up to support versus them.
They are a dedicated AI squad that needs to be positioned and cannot be A-moved like LMG units. Sure, they can 1v1 most other squads, but everything else hardcounters them its easier to keep at range than it is for them to close distance, even with smoke.
You are simply missing my point. Balance and diversity are simply 2 separate issues.
You argued that:
"They have to do that specific job well given they compete with Guard doctrine who can tackles all threats to an extent without needing to close."
Shock do not compete with Guards, they do not even coexist since the are not stock units. Shocks fight axis units and they should be balanced according to the performance vs axis infatry.
Same goes for Guards.
Since guards have already be ranked 3 best long range infatry (according to bizrock) being better than LMG paras and 3 BAR riflemen (who are more expensive and hit the field later) if one wants to make Shocks a more attractive choice than Guards (for diversity reason and not for balance reasons one has to nerf Guards) and not buff shocks.
13 Mar 2019, 23:01 PM
#25
Posts: 5279
Eeeeeeh shocks and guards do compete because they CAN'T exist together. When guards weren't viable neither were any of those commanders and before this shock buff shock commanders suffered a similar fate. They compete directly with one another because you have to chose one or the other. Much like brit hammer and anvil design actually
#stalinwept
13 Mar 2019, 23:25 PM
#26
Posts: 600
The only thing i find mental about shocks is the short fuse on their nade. Its like an impact bomb, if you dont catch the guy throwing it as he throws it, by the time the countdown pops up you just lost 4-5 guys.
13 Mar 2019, 23:37 PM
#27
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Eeeeeeh shocks and guards do compete because they CAN'T exist together. When guards weren't viable neither were any of those commanders and before this shock buff shock commanders suffered a similar fate. They compete directly with one another because you have to chose one or the other. Much like brit hammer and anvil design actually
No you do not have to choose one or the other. There 21 Soviet commanders and 10 of them do not have either.
And the "compete" logic is simply flawed, since it has to do with diversity and not balance.
Actually there is balance which has to with how unit and faction compare with each other and there diversity which has to do with how units with in the same faction compare to one another.
Lets say we buff Shock to the same power level of Guards making them equally cost efficient but now they compete with PPsh conscripts so now we have to buff PPsh conscripts because no one uses them but then we have to buff penals because no one uses and you end up with OP faction.
In the end you have messed up balance vs other faction in order to fix a diversity issue.
14 Mar 2019, 00:05 AM
#28
Posts: 5279
No you do not have to choose one or the other. There 21 Soviet commanders and 10 of them do not have either.
And the "compete" logic is simply flawed, since it has to do with diversity and not balance.
Actually there is balance which has to with how unit and faction compare with each other and there diversity which has to do with how units with in the same faction compare to one another.
Lets say we buff Shock to the same power level of Guards making them equally cost efficient but now they compete with PPsh conscripts so now we have to buff PPsh conscripts because no one uses them but then we have to buff penals because no one uses and you end up with OP faction.
In the end you have messed up balance vs other faction in order to fix a diversity issue.
Look, I'm not saying that shocks need more adjustment but they DO compete. If they are equally attractive THEN we have diversity, if not then we don't. Soviet have 21 commanders, how many have shocks and guards? How many are similar enough that the choice of one or the other dictates putting it into your card?
The isu commanders for example, I personally much prefer the one with shocks because of vehicle detection BUT guards are a great unit so I usually go that way instead of the cqb unit in a long ranged combat game. They don't fight each other but are competing. Their balance is independent of one another but their attractiveness is not.
#stalinwept
14 Mar 2019, 00:19 AM
#29
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Look, I'm not saying that shocks need more adjustment but they DO compete. If they are equally attractive THEN we have diversity, if not then we don't. Soviet have 21 commanders, how many have shocks and guards? How many are similar enough that the choice of one or the other dictates putting it into your card?
The isu commanders for example, I personally much prefer the one with shocks because of vehicle detection BUT guards are a great unit so I usually go that way instead of the cqb unit in a long ranged combat game. They don't fight each other but are competing. Their balance is independent of one another but their attractiveness is not.
You can call it what ever you like.
My point is simply, diversity (which has to with the faction itself) does not over-right balance (which has to do with faction vs faction), so buffing Shock troops because Guards is very good unit is not justification enough.
Solving diversity issues can be achieved by making unit bring different things to the table so that they do not actually compete for the same role. In this case Shock troops is an pure AI unit while Guards are an AI/AT unit so one can use the difference is roles to increase diversity.
But since we are talking about doctrinal units one could even solve some of these issues with redesigning commanders.
14 Mar 2019, 01:32 AM
#30
Posts: 3032 | Subs: 3
The only thing i find mental about shocks is the short fuse on their nade. Its like an impact bomb, if you dont catch the guy throwing it as he throws it, by the time the countdown pops up you just lost 4-5 guys.
Grenadier rifle nades must give you nightmares then
14 Mar 2019, 01:46 AM
#31
Posts: 600
Grenadier rifle nades must give you nightmares then
Nah they have a nice loud sound and send a mail note warning of its arrival 3 days prior to it landing.
14 Mar 2019, 03:17 AM
#32
Posts: 5279
Nah they have a nice loud sound and send a mail note warning of its arrival 3 days prior to it landing.
Nothing as subtle as a squad walking up to you and throwing it.
#stalinwept
14 Mar 2019, 13:35 PM
#33
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Nah they have a nice loud sound and send a mail note warning of its arrival 3 days prior to it landing.
Shame that we had like a 2/3 year old bug which removes the animation and sound queues are unreliable since game release.
Shocks must be one of the most telegraphed nades in the game, because they must run towards you in order to be effective. They also don't have 100dmg nuke nades such as PGs, Obers, Falls, Commandos, etc which have almost double the lethal radius compared to normal 80dmg nades.
If you find shock nades mental, not sure what would you call reacting to "cloaked unit" throwing short fused nuke nades to be.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
14 Mar 2019, 13:43 PM
#34
Posts: 3032 | Subs: 3
Btw yes, of course they needed the buff, or what do you think of a 390mp squad that has 0 AT capabilities and does literally 0 dps if the target is more far away than 1 meter?
14 Mar 2019, 13:54 PM
#35
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Shame that we had like a 2/3 year old bug which removes the animation and sound queues are unreliable since game release.
Shocks must be one of the most telegraphed nades in the game, because they must run towards you in order to be effective. They also don't have 100dmg nuke nades such as PGs, Obers, Falls, Commandos, etc which have almost double the lethal radius compared to normal 80dmg nades.
If you find shock nades mental, not sure what would you call reacting to "cloaked unit" throwing short fused nuke nades to be.
Compared to Rgd33/Mk2 grenade (Guards/Riflemen) the Rg42 has around double the far damage and sorter fuse so it is superior.
It is inferior to "bundle" type grenades as you have stated thou.
14 Mar 2019, 14:34 PM
#36
Posts: 1096
(Resists urge to add poll options I DON'T KNOW and CAN YOU REPEAT THE QUESTION)
I've got nothing else to add, I don't think I've used them enough since the buff to think something useful.
Reported.
reason: You're not the boss of me now.
XD
14 Mar 2019, 15:36 PM
#37
Posts: 1484
Shocks needed a buff because they are VERY niche type of infantry. At least paratroops with Thompson or Rangers can fight mid range.
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14 Mar 2019, 15:43 PM
#38
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Shocks needed a buff because they are VERY niche type of infantry. At least paratroops with Thompson or Rangers can fight mid range.
You are comparing shocks with units that are come later are, more expensive, do not have smoke grenades and require weapon upgrades. This is rather misleading. And if that was the case the could come with 4 PPsh +2 SVTs similar to paras.
In the end of the day they where facing axis unit and there very few infatry that could stand up against them.
14 Mar 2019, 15:49 PM
#39
Posts: 1484
You are comparing shocks with units that are come later are, more expensive, do not have smoke grenades and require weapon upgrades. This is rather misleading. And if that was the case the could come with 4 PPsh +2 SVTs similar to paras.
In the end of the day they where facing axis unit and there very few infatry that could stand up against them.
What do you mean by last sentence? Axis have access to PGs as Wher which the timing is somewhat similar. I think OKW probably will have problems "depending" on map and how well MGs are microed but late game Obers wreck shocks both with LMG and STGs (doctrine vs doctrine).
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14 Mar 2019, 15:52 PM
#40
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
What do you mean by last sentence? Axis have access to PGs as Wher which the timing is somewhat similar. I think OKW probably will have problems "depending" on map and how well MGs are microed but late game Obers wreck shocks both with LMG and STGs (doctrine vs doctrine).
PG do no stand a chance vs Shock
Obers come later, need a weapon upgrade and are only decent once vetted.
You are right about them being map dependent, but that is not actually a bad design. By making units better on certain maps one can increase diversity and change build orders.
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