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russian armor

Upcoming CoH3 installment (Poll)

10 Mar 2019, 00:14 AM
#21
avatar of blancat

Posts: 810



Not really, you are oversimplifying and leaving out a lot, you basically described every army with that list.

So a better list might be a bit more like this

Japan:

-Large variety of infantry (rifles, smgs, hmgs, combat engineers, bridge/pontoon engineers, demolition squads, paratroopers, specialized commandos, snipers, AT infantry, etc.)
-Trucks and armoured cars why not
-Light and medium tanks (including flame tanks, infantry support gunned tanks, AT gunned tanks)
-Medium and large calliber SPGs
-A few support heavy tanks actually used in combat
-Large calliber rocket artillery
-Naval landing vehicles and equipment
-Defensive AA and artillery emplacements, bunkers, etc.
-Non combat logistical and other support vehicles to spice things up (troop and gun transports, ammo and resource carriers, multiporpouse engineering vehicles, radar vehicles, command vehicles, etc.)
-Different types of air support (supplies, light and medium bombings, fragmentation bombs, ground attackers with large calliber guns, etc.)
-basically all type of ordenance


US:

-Infantry (pretty much the same)
-scout vehicles such as the Greyhound
-light vehicles such as AA halftracks and gun carriers (.50cal halftracks, 40mm boffors halftraks, mortar carriers, etc.)
-light and medium tanks (Stuarts, 75mm and 105mm Shermans, flame tanks)
-Amphibous landing vehicles and amphibous upgrades for these tanks
-M18 Hellcat
-Rocket artillery trucks
-Large gunned SPGs
-Large calliber arty emplacements
-Non combat logistical and other support vehicles (pretty much the same)
-Air support (supplies, standard and napalm bombings, planes with HV rockets, etc)
-All types of ordenance


This obviously without going into much detail and leaving out more.

Here both the US and Japan could have support from their respective IJN and USMC branches, or these could even be factions of their own too (at least with the SNLF a lot more could still be added).



USF stuart can beat every imperial japan army's armour

what is japan army's logistic? suicide banzai attack?

I have never seen an impressive picture of their past record

They have a World War I level equipment and always lost to USF in the land battle
10 Mar 2019, 03:29 AM
#22
avatar of kikiribukiriki

Posts: 24

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2019, 00:14 AMblancat



USF stuart can beat every imperial japan army's armour

what is japan army's logistic? suicide banzai attack?

I have never seen an impressive picture of their past record

They have a World War I level equipment and always lost to USF in the land battle


And the 47mm Chi-Ha could also beat most of the USFs armour, your point is? Although the Stuart couldnt reliably pen every IJA armour.

Most of their equipment being WW1 level is also very arguable.

To be fair, every axis nation lost against USF in most land battles, only at the beginning of the conflict they all had their main victories.

10 Mar 2019, 09:39 AM
#23
avatar of blancat

Posts: 810



And the 47mm Chi-Ha could also beat most of the USFs armour, your point is? Although the Stuart couldnt reliably pen every IJA armour.

Most of their equipment being WW1 level is also very arguable.

To be fair, every axis nation lost against USF in most land battles, only at the beginning of the conflict they all had their main victories.




47mm Chi-Ha could also beat most of the USFs armour -> ??????

source?


Everyone knows that the armor of IJA was terrible

Did they have tanks of the same class as the PZ4? no

Did they have tanks of the same class as the Tiger? no

yes Germany lost the war

But their equipment level was not inferior to the US military
10 Mar 2019, 09:51 AM
#24
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2019, 09:39 AMblancat



47mm Chi-Ha could also beat most of the USFs armour -> ??????

source?



Shinhoto Chi-Ha with a long 47-mm cannon. Their guns were tested by shooting at the captured American M3 "Stuart". The relatively thick frontal armor of this tank was penetrated by Japanese cannon with great difficulty, but on the tests of "Shinhoto Chi-Kha" pierced M3 armor with three of six hits from a distance of 1000 meters and six of nine hits at a distance of 800 meters.
10 Mar 2019, 10:09 AM
#25
avatar of blancat

Posts: 810



Shinhoto Chi-Ha with a long 47-mm cannon. Their guns were tested by shooting at the captured American M3 "Stuart". The relatively thick frontal armor of this tank was penetrated by Japanese cannon with great difficulty, but on the tests of "Shinhoto Chi-Kha" pierced M3 armor with three of six hits from a distance of 1000 meters and six of nine hits at a distance of 800 meters.


lol, finally they can penetrate M3 "stuart"

so how about sherman?
10 Mar 2019, 10:16 AM
#26
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



Shinhoto Chi-Ha with a long 47-mm cannon. Their guns were tested by shooting at the captured American M3 "Stuart". The relatively thick frontal armor of this tank was penetrated by Japanese cannon with great difficulty, but on the tests of "Shinhoto Chi-Kha" pierced M3 armor with three of six hits from a distance of 1000 meters and six of nine hits at a distance of 800 meters.

Meanwhile, Sherman which was also used on the islands, literally any variant was completely immune against it except shortest of ranges.

You know your army tanks are shit, when you boast about being able to penetrate Stuart LIGHT TANK and yes, its armor was relatively thick, in relation to light tanks, it was paper thin in relation to everything else coming after it.
10 Mar 2019, 11:33 AM
#27
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2019, 10:16 AMKatitof

Meanwhile, Sherman which was also used on the islands, literally any variant was completely immune against it except shortest of ranges.

You know your army tanks are shit, when you boast about being able to penetrate Stuart LIGHT TANK and yes, its armor was relatively thick, in relation to light tanks, it was paper think in relation to everything else coming after it.


Let's be honest: 800-1000 meters is an unreal range for island and jungle. The fighting was at close range.

The Shinhoto Chi-Ha cannon penetrates 50-mm armor at a meeting angle of 60 ° at 500 meters, that is, Sherman could theoretically be destroyed at 500 meters, that is, at a real combat distance.
10 Mar 2019, 15:17 PM
#28
avatar of MajorBloodnok
Admin Red  Badge
Patrion 314

Posts: 10665 | Subs: 9



Let's be honest: 800-1000 meters is an unreal range for island and jungle. The fighting was at close range.

The Shinhoto Chi-Ha cannon penetrates 50-mm armor at a meeting angle of 60 ° at 500 meters, that is, Sherman could theoretically be destroyed at 500 meters, that is, at a real combat distance.


If memory serves correctly, the USA moved all its Jumbo Shermans promptly out of Europe after VE Day in May 1945, in preparation for the invasion of Honshu and Kyutu. I doubt if they would have done so, unless there was some chance of success with these tanks.

Japan was on its knees, not least because of the US blockade of the Japanese islands. I know some Japanese boats got through under darkness, but not many

However, gameplay trumps RL. Right? ;)

If you have played the map Beach Assault{?}, I would not predict a successful outcome for a game played on such limited scenarios.

10 Mar 2019, 15:19 PM
#29
avatar of MajorBloodnok
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Patrion 314

Posts: 10665 | Subs: 9

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2019, 10:16 AMKatitof

Meanwhile, Sherman which was also used on the islands, literally any variant was completely immune against it except shortest of ranges.

You know your army tanks are shit, when you boast about being able to penetrate Stuart LIGHT TANK and yes, its armor was relatively thick, in relation to light tanks, it was paper think in relation to everything else coming after it.


Pretty well this.
10 Mar 2019, 15:40 PM
#30
avatar of Osinyagov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1389 | Subs: 1

I really doubt about any scenario in setting before 1944, just because CoH is about wunderwaffe of all sizes and types. Modern setting is also possible, since people still dream about WiC 2 and find Wargame to complicated.
10 Mar 2019, 15:49 PM
#31
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2

My personal preference:
- Soviets against Hungary and Germans
- Operation Unthinkable
- Caribbean crisis.
10 Mar 2019, 16:28 PM
#32
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

I really doubt about any scenario in setting before 1944, just because CoH is about wunderwaffe of all sizes and types. Modern setting is also possible, since people still dream about WiC 2 and find Wargame to complicated.


Actually, so far CoH is about furious masturbation over heaviest axis tanks so far.

1938-41 setting offers a whole fucking LOT of never seen so far interesting vehicles from factions that were still relevant at that time, which INCLUDES heavy tanks.

Just not german heavy tanks.
10 Mar 2019, 17:14 PM
#33
avatar of kikiribukiriki

Posts: 24

Ok, so the 47mm AT gun also used on the Chi-Ha, when first introduced in 1941 it had difficulties getting through the Shermans armour. However later on during the mid of the conflict in late 1943 or so, it recieved upgraded shells which replaced the early ones in the most part, these were then used on most battles afterwards.

The 47mm gun was then able to pen 110mm at close to mid range being 250m or so, this according to US tests made after the Battle of Leyte (1945), source:

Enemy on Luzon, an intelligence summary. Headquarters, Sixth Arny, Dec. 1945, page 94.


http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cdm/pageflip/collection/p4013coll8/id/3187/type/compoundobject/show/3186/cpdtype/monograph/pftype/pdf

Thus the 47mm gun was able to easily pen the Shermans sloped armour at such range (250m) and technically, reliably beat any other medium or heavy tank with less than 110mm of protection at least.

A few more tests were done regarding the performance of the 47mm gun, such as a US report based on the Battle of Okinawa were it was reported that the improved shell was able to pen an M4a3 Sherman at 450m, source:

Okinawa, The Most Effective japan Tank, Intelligence Bulletin Vol. 3 No. 10 June 1945 and Vol. 3 No. 11 July 1945, page 24, Vol. 3 No. 11


http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/jp_type97_tank/index.html

A separate report also based on Okinawa stated that the 47mm gun was able to pen any of the M4a6 Shermans armour at any range up to 730m, source:

Japan's Battle of Okinawa, April - June 1945, Leavenworth Papers, U.S. Army Command and General Staff College, Fort Leavenworth, pages 68, 69 and 70.


https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a322748.pdf


Lastly, a report based on the Battle of Iwo Jima were US personel request the delivery of the M26 Pershing due to the now extreme vulnerability of the M4a3 Sherman by the 47mm gun, source:

Annex "Jig" to Fourth Marine Division Operations Report, Iwo Jima - 4th Tank Battallion Report, page 20


https://archive.org/details/JigReport4thMarineDivisionIwoJima-nsia/page/n19


This is for those asking for sources.

So therefore, the 47mm gun was then able to reliably pen the Shermans armour at a range of 750m and so it could against any other medium tank similarly armoured at this range, while at closer ranges were the gun reached the 110mm of pen, it had a much better chance against more protected vehicles, being most of what the allies field, including some heavy tanks.

The only allied vehicles I can think of were the 47mm gun would have trouble fighting against, are the Sherman Jumbo, the Pershing and especially the late war Churchills, which I believe the latter did saw some limited combat in the Pacific. While Soviet heavy tanks such as the IS2, used during the 1945 Manchuria invasion, would also be protected on the most part by the 47mm gun, only getting pen on a couple of areas from the front.

Either way, if heavy tanks such as the Jumbo, the Pershing or the IS2 were to be used, Japan would still have other weapons to deal against these more effectively though.
10 Mar 2019, 17:26 PM
#34
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2779

Just FYI, both British and American pre-1944 era tank are shit.
Only Soviet and German post 1943 armour were actually good.

Their design were still basically for infantry support, didn't go well in German/Soviet tankvstank strategy.

Churchill was too damn slow, Sherman was puttung a plane engine into it making it so visible and vulnerable.

T-34 & Panther was the best in the game.

Meanwhile Jap, their army was still in WW1 era, strategically and tactically.
10 Mar 2019, 17:44 PM
#35
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

>German post 1943 armour was good

Economics and Practicality would like to have a word with those overengineered pieces of hot krupp garbage.

But sure, keep building Jagdtigers, the one fight where there's a vehicle available will surely offset the ten where you have no tank support and are being overrun by more mobile vehicles that can cross bridges all on their own. All those man hours and deutschmarks will surely help Germany win the war.
10 Mar 2019, 18:19 PM
#36
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2779

>German post 1943 armour was good

Economics and Practicality would like to have a word with those overengineered pieces of hot krupp garbage.

But sure, keep building Jagdtigers, the one fight where there's a vehicle available will surely offset the ten where you have no tank support and are being overrun by more mobile vehicles that can cross bridges all on their own. All those man hours and deutschmarks will surely help Germany win the war.


If it was the stratgic bombing, it won't be a problem yeah?
Post war tanks and fighter/bomber are all ultra-overengineered by your standard.

Don't forget in 1943 German was still in a one way front.

Imagine if US and Brit vs Soviet, they die faster than the German.

They rearm West Germany asap just using the German as shield against potential T-44 spam to Paris.
10 Mar 2019, 18:23 PM
#37
avatar of Osinyagov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1389 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2019, 16:28 PMKatitof


Actually, so far CoH is about furious masturbation over heaviest axis tanks so far.

1938-41 setting offers a whole fucking LOT of never seen so far interesting vehicles from factions that were still relevant at that time, which INCLUDES heavy tanks.

Just not german heavy tanks.


Maybe, i am not good informed about them. I only know about some soviet wunderwaffe, which was tested during Notrh War against Finland, like SMK or T-100. Oh yeah, some heavy and super heavy french tanks too.
10 Mar 2019, 18:43 PM
#38
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2



Maybe, i am not good informed about them. I only know about some soviet wunderwaffe, which was tested during Notrh War against Finland, like SMK or T-100. Oh yeah, some heavy and super heavy french tanks too.


The KV-1 was already the Tiger of 1941, but there are really unique tanks produced in one number and sent to the front:
- KV-220, more armored version of the KV with a 85-mm cannon

- KV-3 with a 107-mm cannon. One KV-3 was sent to the front, another sample, without a turret and a number of units, was taken to Chelyabinsk.

-SU-100Y, used in battles for Moscow 1941-1942. It jagdtiger 1941, its 130-mm naval gun just Annihilator.
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