Conscript Utility

To ignore Dostrofio's self aggrendising posturing for a moment:

The ostruppen comparison is a very valid point. Late game vet 3 ostruppen, an even cheaper unit with an at snare, already scale better than conscripts. They were always intended to be a cheap, fodder like meatshield unit with utility. Just like conscripts.

Sure, cons do a little more than Ostruppen in the utility game. But they also fight worse in the long run and cost more.

There really is no argument for anything besides letting Cons have an actual late game upgrade. Whatever they are CALLED they are the core infantry unit of the soviet army and there is zero reason for only one nation to have a core infantry choice that arbitrarily is useless in the late game.

Every other core infantry can weapon upgrade one way or another. Even if the only change is an SVT upgrade package available from T4, they need something

Cons need something to scale, right now theyre just grenade chucking turrets. Grenades u need to sidetech and buy with fuel. A mg or something ,ppsh for free and hit the dirt. I can snare with my guards or my penals too.

Welcome to the forums then, people here disagree for the most stupid things, like "Cons must be great because they are russian" or "german were superior" BS.
Finally the game is hardly seeking balance and so much people with selfish intent do not care the game overall but its beloved faction.

Take a moment a read all the positive feedback i gave to OP, later lets discuss if im the bad one here

https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198067331839

To ignore Dostrofio's self aggrendising posturing for a moment:

The ostruppen comparison is a very valid point. Late game vet 3 ostruppen, an even cheaper unit with an at snare, already scale better than conscripts. They were always intended to be a cheap, fodder like meatshield unit with utility. Just like conscripts.

Sure, cons do a little more than Ostruppen in the utility game. But they also fight worse in the long run and cost more.

There really is no argument for anything besides letting Cons have an actual late game upgrade. Whatever they are CALLED they are the core infantry unit of the soviet army and there is zero reason for only one nation to have a core infantry choice that arbitrarily is useless in the late game.

Every other core infantry can weapon upgrade one way or another. Even if the only change is an SVT upgrade package available from T4, they need something

They may perform similiar in Cover. Did you see osttruppens perfomance without cover, for example on the offensive? People seem to forget every drawback

If A has a problem, but B is fine, you dont say A is broken because of B. But hey, not everyone can undestrand simple logic...

OR you should, because all things are related and don't work in isolation. In your POV you think B is fine, but maybe B is not fine at can be one of the reasons that by comparison A is been bad, even if against C is fine.

You talk about not liking powercreep, but you are basically suggesting that as a solution. I'll rather tone down the power of main line infantry late game scaling so elites/call ins have more space to work.


@OP. Conscript utility is a meme. If 5 years of this game has taught as something, is that games are not won by utility but firepower, tactical decisions and cheese.
And the moment utility is too good, it's because it can be used in a cheesy way and we nerf the hell out of it.

Conscripts had free Oorah in Alpha/Beta (?). They used to cost 5muni on release. Look where we are now.
Merge is less desirable when conscripts got a higher RA and all elites power level and cost had been reduced. Reminder that original Penals were 360mp mirror version of PGs. Even engineers were more expensive.
Sandbags had tons more of HP and all the issues we had with ghostsandbagging big chunks of large walls.
Trip wire was a garrison exit nuker and basically conscripts preemptive model killing mine.

So what you suggest?

-Reduce power level of BAR rifles, STG Volks (they should have access to faster Obers) and not sure IS double bren (i don't know as much it's current situation).
-Make conscripts start with molotovs but lockdown Penal PTRS (maybe vanilla satchel) behind current AT package and rename it AT and demolition pack or something.
At this moment with current Oorah and molotov cost, i don't think of this as such an issue but i could be wrong.
-My fear with reducing reinforcing cost with tech, is that it could make PPSH based strats too spammable even if they are now at 60.
IF you can make a believable reason to exclude it somehow from PPSH conscripts, i could see it working with -1mp per each of the first 2 tiers and -2mp for T4.
-Don't give them LMG. Don't give them PPSH stock. I don't want a late game DPS upgrade. But if you suggest something, i'll rather it be a SVT pack or better, just Guards Mosins. You could call it training or something like that.

Make an 'anvil sappers' style upgrade for cons, something like "advanced combat training" or use the 'frontoviki' idea that the campaign has at tier-4 that gives them an upgrade to stats and maybe 2 SVT rifles.

Not sure how that'd synergize with the PPSH package but whatever.

Not too breathe my own fart in too deep, but why does everyone want to reinvent the wheel when RTS games have had a "unit that sucks gets global upgrade later" mechanic since forever?

We also have it in game with our own units in the way battle phases and brit teching works.

They may perform similiar in Cover. Did you see osttruppens perfomance without cover, for example on the offensive? People seem to forget every drawback

That keeps them balanced in the early game and certainly doesn't hurt them late game after mortars have been falling for the last 20 minutes since craters count as cover. Regardless you buy ostroppen because you can count on them (no really, you can!) the inverse is why nobody builds cons

Not too breathe my own fart in too deep, but why does everyone want to reinvent the wheel when RTS games have had a "unit that sucks gets global upgrade later" mechanic since forever?

We also have it in game with our own units in the way battle phases and brit teching works.

Because cons have had global upgrades since launch and have sucked the entirety of it. Only what last year they even got atheir price looked at. The patch cycle isn't reliable enough to test out something that will 100% be left broke for months then maybe half fixed (JLI for example) if cons require constant investment throughout the game they would need to be cheaper than ostroppen to start. It's already hard to justify 205mp and 35 fuel into the average priced but subpar performing squad without adding more investment to make them slightly less shitty. At what point would be the proper investment to have cons start to function to their purchase price? Do we need another 200mp and 30 fuel? More?
Globals only work if it's something you intend to have a lot of. For cons the plan is to have as few as possible because you are trying to win.

OR you should, because all things are related and don't work in isolation. In your POV you think B is fine, but maybe B is not fine at can be one of the reasons that by comparison A is been bad, even if against C is fine.
...

We both can agree with all the things are related. But in order to solve a single problem, you dont bring into the table other problems aswell, and make a mess of topics and no problem gets solved. I mean, B can/cannot be fine, but definitely A is broken, focus on fixing one problem at a time, cons in this case, i gave many suggestions but the hate towards enemy inf is too hyped and mainstream. Believe me or not, but this kind of discussions remind me of kids fightings. Cons can be fixed with a steady step, later volks get toned down, or OKM starting MP reduced, they are offtopic and their relation to this problem im particular is minimal.
Cons are expensive and not that useful. But everyones like to blame on axis inf. If you tone down volks, the next patch rifles will get toned down too, since balance there got broken for a stupid cons argument. Later grens/pzgrdiers too get toned down and so and so on. This logic is repeating itself so much i'd rather take the risk to do a diferent approach.

So what you suggest?

-Reduce power level of BAR rifles, STG Volks (they should have access to faster Obers) and not sure IS double bren (i don't know as much it's current situation).
-Make conscripts start with molotovs but lockdown Penal PTRS (maybe vanilla satchel) behind current AT package and rename it AT and demolition pack or something.
At this moment with current Oorah and molotov cost, i don't think of this as such an issue but i could be wrong.
-My fear with reducing reinforcing cost with tech, is that it could make PPSH based strats too spammable even if they are now at 60.
IF you can make a believable reason to exclude it somehow from PPSH conscripts, i could see it working with -1mp per each of the first 2 tiers and -2mp for T4.
-Don't give them LMG. Don't give them PPSH stock. I don't want a late game DPS upgrade. But if you suggest something, i'll rather it be a SVT pack or better, just Guards Mosins. You could call it training or something like that.

Great ideas, imo giving lmg upgrades to cons is not optimal too. Cons are not a ostruppen clone.
Maybe making reinforce cost really cheap can help too, they become "extra dispensable" this way.
If cons could trade effectively manpower maybe they could find some use in current game.
Free Oohraah! sounds fine. Having them with a cheaper molo and free Oohraah could give a shock value for cons and fight and use garrisons earlier than any other inf.

As no one really wants to give a detailed 1v1 matchup of current infantry balance, but all SU fans rant about cons sucking, i ask for Vipper or Katitof to raise some light.

To ignore Dostrofio's self aggrendising posturing for a moment:
...

"To ignore anything against my words and since i cannot elaborate i just repeat myself to death and hope others follow on me"
Fixed it.
2018-19 mainstream discussion here. What a surprise.

Actually i like to being proved wrong, i like to see what others Bring up to the table new POV to make a good discussion, to find each detail in the problem.

Lovely to see people compainting about toxicity but they are toxic themselves in the first place. What a place to share good moments...

Because cons have had global upgrades since launch and have sucked the entirety of it. Only what last year they even got atheir price looked at. The patch cycle isn't reliable enough to test out something that will 100% be left broke for months then maybe half fixed (JLI for example) if cons require constant investment throughout the game they would need to be cheaper than ostroppen to start. It's already hard to justify 205mp and 35 fuel into the average priced but subpar performing squad without adding more investment to make them slightly less shitty. At what point would be the proper investment to have cons start to function to their purchase price? Do we need another 200mp and 30 fuel? More?

Bruh, just make it free or package it as part of the Tier-4 upgrade. No more side-tech, you unlock ze bonus if you go tier-4. Cons get better guns/RA/whatever. I don't think anyone is gonna complain that making a fresh conscript squad 30 minutes into the game is "OP" (actually, I can think of a few -- but they would complain about literally anything so eh).

Globals only work if it's something you intend to have a lot of. For cons the plan is to have as few as possible because you are trying to win.

There's some circularity in the logic here, but if the unit was worth using -- it'd be used. That's how JLI and valentine went form "never used" to "always spammed". The unit was made worth using. If making cons becomes a promising prospect of decent infantry that can scale well and with the added bonus that their late-game performance isn't tied to veterancy 2 + getting luck to pick up a dropped gun, then it'll be more worth it to make.

Also, yes I like winning, but I also enjoy playing a game that isn't super stale and as soviets, it's pretttttttttttttttttttttttttty stale right now. Well, as most armies it is pretty stale tbh.

Why on earth no one is setting up a simple plan like:

Boost cons for a defensive/versatile opening
(Buff/nerf units in the proccess)

Rework penals for an offensive opening
(Buff/neft and install a puhisn mechanic for a failed offensive)

As many will point out, OST has good defensive openings, and OKM clearly relies on offense.

Setting that aside, what if cons got a rework and a buff on their squad size and models. I mean the new cons squad will still cost 200 and will come with 5 man, but the max size for it is now 8. Reinforce cost to adjust. Now as a 8 man squad it clearly should win 1v1 clashes in early game at the cost of having the squad waiting for extra members. Merge mechanic will get a slight buff since you wont loose as easly the squad when merging. Its a manpower trade but that allows SU player to choose, a fast capping squad or a more reliant in massed squad.

how about having a soviet commissar executing a whole conscript unit for a little veterency for the rest of the conscripts? It would be historic accurate.

how about having a soviet commissar executing a whole conscript unit for a little veterency for the rest of the conscripts? It would be historic accurate.

Snip

You are impossible to discuss with because you are incapable of maintaining a coherent train of thought, addressing what is actually being discussed or not insulting somebody. It's not worth it.

They may perform similiar in Cover. Did you see osttruppens perfomance without cover, for example on the offensive? People seem to forget every drawback

An early game issue that quickly becomes a non-issue, and keeps ostruppen from being the only sensible opening in the game with all the map control they give.
Twenty minutes of mortars and tanks arriving and everywhere that the fighting is hard has yellow cover all over. The same saving grace that birts have. And even brits are allowed to buy global upgrades and weapons for their core infantry.

-Reduce power level of BAR rifles, STG Volks (they should have access to faster Obers) and not sure IS double bren (i don't know as much it's current situation).
-Make conscripts start with molotovs but lockdown Penal PTRS (maybe vanilla satchel) behind current AT package and rename it AT and demolition pack or something.
At this moment with current Oorah and molotov cost, i don't think of this as such an issue but i could be wrong.
-My fear with reducing reinforcing cost with tech, is that it could make PPSH based strats too spammable even if they are now at 60.
IF you can make a believable reason to exclude it somehow from PPSH conscripts, i could see it working with -1mp per each of the first 2 tiers and -2mp for T4.
-Don't give them LMG. Don't give them PPSH stock. I don't want a late game DPS upgrade. But if you suggest something, i'll rather it be a SVT pack or better, just Guards Mosins. You could call it training or something like that.

Agreed with most of that, but the one issue would be that a lot of USF and brit commanders would be 100% useless for lack of elite infantry.

Just have to pay 10 MP more, you have a better flame nade over molotov , gun upgrade that boast all range dps and faust over AT nade. The only downside is losing orrah.Why playing soviet and building conscript? Not to mention SP>CE.

Not to mention SP>CE.

We don't say that here, it lures out certain reptilian from its nest to explain you how wrong you are, despite actual in game performance showing otherwise.

Also, volks with MP40 get smoke or sprint as well as extra 10% rec acc.
edit: it was smoke, assgrens are sprinty bois.

We don't say that here, it lures out certain reptilian from its nest to explain you how wrong you are, despite actual in game performance showing otherwise.

Also, volks with MP40 get smoke or sprint as well as extra 10% rec acc.

Oh, you have forgotten the extra MP at the beginning also.

Conscripts main utility is feeding vet to the Germans, it makes games more interesting, you know?