Are Osttruppen OP or Underpowered ?

IMO ostruppen are fine. Give them grenades and they're too close to real mainline infantry to justify their ridiculously low cost and stellar efficiency, but the lmgs are warranted with the timing they have IMO, and panzerfausts are definitely needed. Cover debuff/rebuff system makes it so they aren't a no-brainer too, but again they're very cost effective IMO.


Wait but they're least fragile against vehicles since they're 6 men and target size doesn't matter for scatter right? The vehicle's mgs will do that much more damage but tank guns will be less effective against them than they would be against grens as long as you don't let them clump up at the door.

I honestly don't know the answer to your question, I'm just stating my opinion from an experienced point of view of spamming trenches and just manning them with Osttruppen but like I said, every time there is a tank in my front yard I need to march them outside and hope to god they don't get all one shot to faust the damn thing and then get them back inside.

If a Panzerbusche upgrade is added it could just be made so they wouldn't be able to use the Panzerfaust or upgrade to the MG42 anymore.

If the upgrade entirely replaced the MG42 I don't think it would be that bad either but it's up to the balance team really, I don't mind it either way as long as I don't have to march them out of the garrison, faust and then march them back in.

You are missing the time factor. Even if osttruppen become identical to conscript but available around minute 20 they would hardy had much of an impact.


Osttruppen are good at stealing weapon, if you want to man weapon pioneer are far better.

Giving LMG to 6 men squads is bad option because of the the DPS drop does not follow the entity lost, imo it should be removed.


The idea is to remove the LMG upgrade not keep it, the upgrade would just to remove to cover mechanism, less firepower more utility.

I honestly feel like ostruppen are just supposed to be line infantry, which IMO they very much are right now, not some sort of assault squad. Panzergrenadiers exist for that. I see what you're saying about lmgs but there's already like 2 other 6 man lmg squads and 2 5 man lmg squads (sections with bolster and 1919s on rifles) and IMO it's not a massive problem such that it warrants removing in any capacity, especially because there's kind of a lot of larger lmg squads anyway.

Actually imo ostruppen are fine... they are in fact more cost efficient than the soviet conscript and sale relatively well... conscripts on the other hand...

Don't try to fix what is not broken /thread

Don't try to fix what is not broken /thread

+1
Learn from this mans wisdom

Ostruppens serve more purpose in 1v1 where strategies involving fast and early map control are prevalent.

I say this because I can understand how people playing team games might not see a lot of use in them, if you get them from relief infantry or with c.panzer, however the ostruppen doctrine does have a set of tools that are really useful in team games, they actually work better with them alone, than to use grens or pgrens.


They get LMGs at a time where they should, so they do scale enough without imbalance.
It's a well thought unit and doctrine, the latest patch made their doctrine even better.

"the latest patch made their doctrine even better."

pls elaborate
are you referring to the changes made to defensive doctrine (stug e), THE Osttruppen docrine or Osttruppen doctrines in gernell, because i find the Osttruppen doctrine, except for the osttruppen, pretty lackluster

They are cheap units to pick up team weapons, that's all this unit can and supposed to do.

I honestly don't know the answer to your question, I'm just stating my opinion from an experienced point of view of spamming trenches and just manning them with Osttruppen but like I said, every time there is a tank in my front yard I need to march them outside and hope to god they don't get all one shot to faust the damn thing and then get them back inside.

If a Panzerbusche upgrade is added it could just be made so they wouldn't be able to use the Panzerfaust or upgrade to the MG42 anymore.

If the upgrade entirely replaced the MG42 I don't think it would be that bad either but it's up to the balance team really, I don't mind it either way as long as I don't have to march them out of the garrison, faust and then march them back in.

Your really use trenches, and if you fill them with Osttruppen?? You should't do that. Osttruppen benefit of the distance between the men and the quick refresh rate. Put them behind a sandbag-wall and build as quick as possible a HQ-bunker or a Sdkfz. 251. If your enemy isn't a soviet, or you know he will not build a M3-clown-car, don't build T1 and push in a new Osttrupp instead or build a MG42 (normally a HMG42 is the biggest enemy of Osttruppen, suppression is bad for Grens and way worse for Osttruppen DPS). Better build a 222 or a PnzGren with Schrecks if you need a AT.


Osttruppen only have 1 weapon-slot, why not:

T3 2*Panzerbüchse39 for one slot.
T4 1*HMG42 for one slot.


Edit: The new Defence-Commander is the better Osttruppen-Commander, because it fills the lack the old one has. The 88 is an option for late-game, while the classic one simply has no options. It also needs a revamp (while the revamp happend is really bad… made of people don't play Osttruppen):

1. Giving Osttruppen non-doc sand-bags would be first thing.
2. Giving Osttruppen a upgrade for 2*Panzerbüchse in T3, in T4 a HMG42 upgrade.
3. The trench-ability has to be replaced with hull-down. (since the trench-ability of Defence-Commander was changed with Bunkers, tank-traps and treches).
4. The air-drop can be removed with a Beute-T34/76, a call-in tank.
5. Instead of air-drop give them a Beute T34/76-call-in with T3 (Limit to 1). Also the Panzerbüchse-Upgrade could be locked behind T3.

-Osttruppen
-Artillerieoffizier
-hull-down
-Beute T34/76
-Gustav

Your really use trenches, and if you fill them with Osttruppen?? You should't do that. Osttruppen benefit of the distance between the men and the quick refresh rate. Put them behind a sandbag-wall and build as quick as possible a HQ-bunker or a Sdkfz. 251. If your enemy isn't a soviet, or you know he will not build a M3-clown-car, don't build T1 and push in a new Osttrupp instead or build a MG42 (normally a HMG42 is the biggest enemy of Osttruppen, suppression is bad for Grens and way worse for Osttruppen DPS). Better build a 222 or a PnzGren with Schrecks if you need a AT.


Osttruppen only have 1 weapon-slot, why not:

T3 2*Panzerbüchse39 for one slot.
T4 1*HMG42 for one slot.


Edit: The new Defence-Commander is the better Osttruppen-Commander, because it fills the lack the old one has. The 88 is an option for late-game, while the classic one simply has no options. It also needs a revamp (while the revamp happend is really bad… made of people don't play Osttruppen):

1. Giving Osttruppen non-doc sand-bags would be first thing.
2. Giving Osttruppen a upgrade for 2*Panzerbüchse in T3, in T4 a HMG42 upgrade.
3. The trench-ability has to be replaced with hull-down. (since the trench-ability of Defence-Commander was changed with Bunkers, tank-traps and treches).
4. The air-drop can be removed with a Beute-T34/76, a call-in tank.

-Osttruppen
-Artillerieoffizier
-hull-down
-Beute T34/85
-Gustav

The Osttruppen doctrine actually has the Pak 40 from the air drop as well but to me it's nothing more than a manpower sink since it's like around 400 manpower or more to call down, I can get 2 Osttruppen squads for that price, and the MG34 you get from it as well is simply just not worth it, especially when you add to the fact that you have the best MG from the get go already.

Personally what you're saying about the Entrenching Tools, Air Drop and the Defensive Doctrine's Pak 43 is starting to make sense to me now that I actually think about it.

If the Osttruppen are given double Panzerbusche 39s that would eliminate the need for both of the doctrines to have additional AT.

But my take is a bit different than yours, a bit.

For Osttruppen Doctrine:

- Osttruppen
- Artillery Officer
- Panzer IV F1/StuG III E/Beute T34 Panzer like you suggested
- Defensive Tools (Tank Traps, Repair Bunkers, and so on)
- Schwerer Gustav barrage

For Defensive Doctrine:

- Osttruppen
- Command Panzer IV (fits in with the defensive theme of the commander better)
- Defensive Tools (same as above)
- Hull Down
- Sector Artillery

But yes I also agree that Hull Down is good for things like the Panthers and other tanks with a turret but not so much for Turretless vehicles like the StuG.

Alternatively Hull Down can be combined with Entrenching Tools/Defensive Tools since on it's own in it's current state is pretty bad because of what above explanation.

Generally speaking yes, now that you mention it Osttruppen would probably be a lot more useful with just sandbags as Trenches as I have noticed don't really save the men inside as they did compared to CoH for example.

And Hull Down I have not really seen it being used with anything else but Panthers honestly.

And Defensive Tools I only like because of the Tank Traps and Repair Bunkers, that's about it.

I'm not sure giving Osttruppen handheld AT weapons is a good idea unless you want to create anti-everything Ostruppens swarms.

I'm not sure giving Osttruppen handheld AT weapons is a good idea unless you want to create anti-everything Ostruppens swarms.

anti-everything? They are useless out of green-cover and will die like flies. They would lose their AI for some (bad) AT. Like I said, Osttruppen only have one weapon-slot. You can capture a PTRS OR upgrade them with 2*Panzerbüchsen (to make the upgrade attractive) or wait for T4 for one LMH42 if you don't upgraded before.

That is a good mechanic.


I don't use the air-drop. Sure, it is cheaper than building a PaK40 and a MHG. But the reality:

- 1*HMG34 would cost 210mp a PaK40 320mp = 530mp
- Air-drop 450mp + 128mp (the cheapest crew 8*16mp for Osttruppen and refresh) = 578mp + some mun and fuel.

That for a commander needing MP like sand on the beach… the air-drop is simply a complete useless and bad ability. xDDD

...

I was thinking about the hull-down with the T34.

Also the hull-down is broken. It is fine that a PAnther gets 62,5 range (in fact it works like 60 range) but StuG gets the same. It would be good for StuG if it gets 65 range for hull-down. So it has the ability for the first shot versus tank-hunters. Also it needs a indicator. And Elefant gets way too much range in hull-down.

I made that in a mod some years ago for the patch-team and Mr. Smith. But they didn't used my idea.

Since Brummbär got its rage neft also the multibler in hull-down is way too less to be usefull. Hull-down simply needs a revamp.

...
I don't use the air-drop. Sure, it is cheaper than building a PaK40 and a MHG. But the reality:

- 1*HMG34 would cost 210mp a PaK40 320mp = 530mp
- Air-drop 450mp + 128mp (the cheapest crew 8*16mp for Osttruppen and refresh) = 578mp + some mun and fuel.

That for a commander needing MP like sand on the beach… the air-drop is simply a complete useless and bad ability. xDDD

As a fact i use the airdrop quite frequently, at midgame specially. Its true it costs manpower in a faction that bleeds it a lot because of ostruppen casualties. But The advantage its that those guns, the mg34 and the PAK will be crewed by those ostruppen to make them cheap enough, also bring the core mainline new and more powerful tools, a Mg34 paired with a Mg42 deny almost 180 degree arc, using the 42 on the riskier side and the other to cover flanks. Pak walls are for AT control.
The only missing part and it should be is the artillery control, wich ostruppen lacks and its ok, its the weaker side of the doctrine. Reinforce cost is as cheap as it can be, so bunkers to hold the line are mandatory

As a fact i use the airdrop quite frequently, at midgame specially. Its true it costs manpower in a faction that bleeds it a lot because of ostruppen casualties. But The advantage its that those guns, the mg34 and the PAK will be crewed by those ostruppen to make them cheap enough, also bring the core mainline new and more powerful tools, a Mg34 paired with a Mg42 deny almost 180 degree arc, using the 42 on the riskier side and the other to cover flanks. Pak walls are for AT control.
The only missing part and it should be is the artillery control, wich ostruppen lacks and its ok, its the weaker side of the doctrine. Reinforce cost is as cheap as it can be, so bunkers to hold the line are mandatory

I loved the old Osttruppen, but I complete changed to the revamp commander now.

The only thing I am missing is the Artillerieoffizier, but with the StuG E I don't need him. Sometimes Gustav would be good too... but I can live without.

But:
- Trenches are useless, only HMGs benefit from them.
- Air-drop is too much MP bleeing for short time. Building a normal HMG42 and tech PaK40 is cheaper and arrives earlier.
- no-late-game abilities.


Beside, the StuG E's map-building-damage is complete broken, it is ~6*times MORE damage than Brummbär xDDD
A large wood-house will be destroyed by two hits, while Brummbär needs around 4-6.

a. StuG E is too good versus map-buildings.
b. Brummbär is too bad versus map-buildings.

I just think the reinforce speed of the ostruppen should be reverted to what it was. The initial cooldown nerf is already enough.