OKW overhaul discussion

I have made that suggestion for other super heavies tanks. Thought one could try something different for stock unit.

Adding extra fuel cost to KT would mean you can NEVER get 2 in a 1v1 game.

1. No one need Obersoldaten without weapon upgrade.

2. No opinion. I prefer to see Sturmpioneer gain access to both Panzershreck and Repiar Kit.

3. Trade assault camo for increased range and tracking is a reasonable suggestion.

4. Reasonable suggestion.

5. King Tiger has good range, give its gun Brummbar's AOE profile will make it too deadly against team weapons. I think we only need to move Spearhead from vet3 to vet1, and keep the rest unchanged.

6. Reasonable suggestion.

7. I prefer to make it can only target frontline territories.

8. Reasonable suggestion.

Adding extra fuel cost to KT would mean you can NEVER get 2 in a 1v1 game.

That is probably a good thing, although I don't think you can get 2 in 1vs1 anyway.

If losing the KT is crippling blow the unit can then be re-balanced and become more cost efficient, if the opponent lose 2-3 mediums only to see a new roll out in few seconds it is difficult to balance.

I really like this overhaul.
One think I will have to disagree with is the Stuka. I think it's high time for the creeping barrage to become a vet ability and make the standard barrage a circle.

I really like this overhaul.
One think I will have to disagree with is the Stuka. I think it's high time for the creeping barrage to become a vet ability and make the standard barrage a circle.

Then those rocket AOE better be a lot bigger, or the barrage circle be a tight one because I recall LMs, Katy, Werfers, etc all fire double digits amount of rockets while Stuka gets 6.

Then those rocket AOE better be a lot bigger, or the barrage circle be a tight one because I recall LMs, Katy, Werfers, etc all fire double digits amount of rockets while Stuka gets 6.

They already have the biggest aoe.

They already have the biggest aoe.

Depending on how big the bloody circle ends up once you turn it from "line" to "circle", it might need to become even larger.

[…]

Some fun ideas but I'm really aiming for minor changes that fix some core issues rather than completely redesigning the faction, so such changes can be sneaked into future patches like the USF tech changes.

Completely changing units or swapping units is too radical to be considered by Relic to be within scope, IMO.

You propose across the board nerfs to OKW, with a few token buffs to make it look like that's not what you're doing.

Changes 1, 3, 5 and 8 are straight up buffs with 4 and 6 arguably ending up being an improvement too so I have no idea why you would think these are 'nerfs across the board'. The Command Panther call-in is as lame as the old call-in meta and I think every fair person would agree it needs to go too.

I mainly play OKW myself but I will agree with critics that Command Panther, Raketten stealth creep, Artillery Flares, Stuka and arguably OKW early game pressure are cheesy and unfair. I propose these changes to leave their effectiveness the same while making their core mechanics more fair and balanced for everyone.

Some fun ideas but I'm really aiming for minor changes that fix some core issues rather than completely redesigning the faction, so such changes can be sneaked into future patches like the USF tech changes.

Completely changing units or swapping units is too radical to be considered by Relic to be within scope, IMO.

The second post was radical .

Anyway imo somethings like VG ST44 are un-salvageable and should be removed/replaced.

Others like RW need a redesign
and
Others like Stuka will always be problematic due to timing. Making a garrison counter would actually help OKW allot and allow flame grenades to be replaced.

Depending on how big the bloody circle ends up once you turn it from "line" to "circle", it might need to become even larger.

It doesn't have to be massive, but at least it'll have scatter unlike the creeping barrage.

OKW has a similar problem to old USF: it's stuck in T0 for a very long time, forcing it to spam out a load of infantry because it has no other option.

The USF overhaul solved this by lowering the initial teching costs to give USF access to a greater variety of manpower based units sooner, while adding sidetechs to preserve vehicle timings.

So here's what I've got:

SwS Supply Truck

• Convert To Battlegroup Headquarters is now free.
  
• Convert To Mechanized Headquarters is now free.
  
• Convert To Schwerer Panzer Headquarters is now free, and does not require another truck set up. The flak gun starts disabled.

Battlegroup Headquarters

• New upgrade: Activate Battlegroup Headquarters (200 MP, 25 FU).
  
  • Unlocks the IR Halftrack and Flak Halftrack.
• The medics upgrade is now a prerequiste to reinforce from the Battlegroup Headquarters.
  

Mechanized Headquarters

• New upgrade: Activate Mechanized Headquarters (200 MP, 45 FU).
  
  • Unlocks the Panzer II Luchs and Puma.

Schwerer Panzer Headquarters

• New upgrade: Activate Schwerer Panzer Headquarters (200 MP, 120 FU, requires one activated headquarters.)
  
  • Unlocks the Panzer IV, Jagdpanzer IV and Panther.
  • Enables the flak gun.

King Tiger

• Requires three activated Headquarters.

Obersoldaten

• MG34 upgrade requires Activate Schwerer Panzer Headquarters.

It's a lot of text, but in practice it's very simple: the trucks only cost the 100 MP 15 FU the truck itself costs to set up, but all they can do is build their manpower units. They've then got a USF-style sidetech to unlock the vehicles.

This means OKW can potentially build a tech unit as their third squad. They even have the option of going early Obersoldaten (minus LMG34s) if they're willing to spend 100 MP 15 FU to unlock just them and have an unarmed Schwerer Panzer Headquarters on the field for a long time.

A secondary benefit is Mechanized OKW builds can now get medics for 250 MP 30 FU, rather than the 450 MP 40 FU it currently costs them, and Battlegroup builds have much cheaper access to the Walking Stuka. Hypothetically, you could rush a Stuka 45 FU faster now too, but you'd have nothing but Raketenwerfers and Volksgrenadiers to protect it.

...

A secondary benefit is Mechanized OKW builds can now get medics for 250 MP 30 FU, rather than the 450 MP 40 FU it currently costs them, and Battlegroup builds have much cheaper access to the Walking Stuka. Hypothetically, you could rush a Stuka 45 FU faster now too, but you'd have nothing but Raketenwerfers and Volksgrenadiers to protect it.

that can be fixed by replacing the stuka with the Ostheer MHT.

It could, but that's getting into deeper overhauls. The whole idea here is keeping the changes as minimal as possible to get them past the Relicdar.

If more extensive changes weren't counterproductive to that, I'd have put the Stuka in T3, Obersoldaten in T1 and the Goliath and MHT in T2.

OKW has a similar problem to old USF: it's stuck in T0 for a very long time, forcing it to spam out a load of infantry because it has no other option.

The USF overhaul solved this by lowering the initial teching costs to give USF access to a greater variety of manpower based units sooner, while adding sidetechs to preserve vehicle timings.

So here's what I've got:

[...]

I like those changes, good and simple. Sadly the mechanized kinda spoils it. Then again, it could simply not unlock anything (except MG34 from T0) before the upgrade so it can just serve as a cheaper repair station for Battlegroup into Schwerer strats and not change anything for Mechanized strats. This setup would make back teching a lot more forgiving which is nice, since the last major patch did try to adress that but was only able to put it down 5 fuel.

I will put this suggestion in the OP soon.

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I agree with basically all of the changes. One quick question though would the raken keep its retreat or go back to a reverse since its getting 60 range and acting more like a normal AT gun

I like those changes, good and simple. Sadly the mechanized kinda spoils it. Then again, it could simply not unlock anything (except MG34 from T0) before the upgrade so it can just serve as a cheaper repair station for Battlegroup into Schwerer strats and not change anything for Mechanized strats. This setup would make back teching a lot more forgiving which is nice, since the last major patch did try to adress that but was only able to put it down 5 fuel.

I will put this suggestion in the OP soon.

As is, unactivated Mechanized does give you the Stuka, so Battlegroup builds do get a little more than repair pioneers out of it.

Were I not trying to keep it as simple as possible, I'd probably have gone for vertical tech, like the Panzer Elite. That change is pretty extensive though, so I'll post it as another thread rather than derail this one.

As is, unactivated Mechanized does give you the Stuka, so Battlegroup builds do get a little more than repair pioneers out of it.

Yeah, but the Stuka coming 45 fuel sooner is simply out of the question. It's already controversial how early it comes compared to other rocket arty (at T4). In team games it's usually easy to defend early Stuka(s) with mines, infantry and Rakettens alone.

Yeah, but the Stuka coming 45 fuel sooner is simply out of the question. It's already controversial how early it comes compared to other rocket arty (at T4). In team games it's usually easy to defend early Stuka(s) with mines, infantry and Rakettens alone.

Maybe.

The best solution IMO is to stick another unit in T2, but that's beyond the scope of what's being proposed in this thread.

Perhaps it could be solved by making the Panzer II Luchs available from the non-upgraded Mechanized HQ, but increasing both Luchs and Mechanized build time by ~60-90 seconds in total so it will roughly arrive at the same time as it does now. Only problem then is that double Luchs becomes 45FU cheaper.

If you don't mind, I will add your idea as an alternative to my #1 point about T4 split, but with no buildable units for unupgraded Mechanized until we figure out a solution.