Sturmpionier

They have almost no combat vet so they start losing power once squads get vet. Thats why they feel a lot worse at the 6-7+ minute mark when vet 2 mainlines start coming out.

Probably the wild amount of letters scared you away from one of previous posts, so here, let me quote the important bit just for you:

For 300mp unit, they have lower vet requirements for cost, than other units in similar price range.
Vet values should be (if i read the outdated guide and changelog right)
- 50% construction rate (they moved medkits to vet 0 and that was a great buff)
- -30% weapon cooldown, -23% received accuracy +33% repair rate
- Unlocks the 'Concussive Grenade' Ability, +25% construction rate
- 40% accuracy
- No longer takes extra damage when you repair.

The basics on vet for combat units are: -23% RA, 40% accuracy, 20% cooldown, vet 1 ability and some flavour vet like extended range on abilities, reduced muni cost or faster recharge. Check which boxes SP fulfill.

They have regular combat unit vet in comparison to mainline infantry squads.

I don't see the issue with them falling off lategame, with how strong they are early, OKW's main weakness is that.

OKW main weakness it is its logistics. They didnt have any cache/resource boost until 221 came out last patch. 221 still its not comparable to cache, although it helps a little in the resource department.

Now back to topic, SP are a good early unit but its true they become somewhat useless later on and specially on firestrum doctrine, they loose their shock value quite fast and become a nuisance.

On the other side, SP should not get spammed, boosting its survival would cause that, and if a volks nerf is incoming, even more SP will be spammed.

Edit: maybe vet bonus buffing its running speed or focus on utility will diverse the squad from shock to engi squad

Probably the wild amount of letters scared you away from one of previous posts, so here, let me quote the important bit just for you:



They have regular combat unit vet in comparison to mainline infantry squads.

Hm I actually read the first two posts then replied so I didn’t see that my bad.


In that case they probably just feel weaker late since you typically stop using them as a combat unit since they have other roles to fill.

You and NaCL carry over the most retarded of arguments from other threads.

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Jokes aside, they are in a fine spot right now. They aren't shock troops, they are just "better engineers".

Firstly. It's NaOCl.

Secondly, I didn't make an argument, I ASKED A QUESTION, perhaps going to school might have helped you understand the difference. I'll repeat for the ones among us who didn't ever manage to learn comprehension.

"Why is their veterancy so bad?"

I wanted to understand the REASONING and DESIGN PHILOSOPHY behind why they don't scale well into the late game.

IE is it to stop double sturmpionier being a viable opening? Some other reason?

Because builder/repair units do not have great veternacy as they are not primarily combat units.
/thread

....
They have regular combat unit vet in comparison to mainline infantry squads.

Glad to see that you changed your mind and you know agree with my post.

If people actually read and understand what OP is asking, instead of arguing about semantics and "intentions", the forum would be less toxic.



This whole thing could had been avoided if you use the correct words in the first opening post as it derailed what people is thinking.
Your complain is not about the veterancy, but how you FEEL that they are scaling into the mid-late game.

For 300mp unit, they have lower vet requirements for cost, than other units in similar price range.
Vet values should be (if i read the outdated guide and changelog right)
- 50% construction rate (they moved medkits to vet 0 and that was a great buff)
- -30% weapon cooldown, -23% received accuracy +33% repair rate
- Unlocks the 'Concussive Grenade' Ability, +25% construction rate
- 40% accuracy
- No longer takes extra damage when you repair.

The basics on vet for combat units are: -23% RA, 40% accuracy, 20% cooldown, vet 1 ability and some flavour vet like extended range on abilities, reduced muni cost or faster recharge. Check which boxes SP fulfill.

Some units have extra values or different ones to account for their faction, their scaling and their role as a unit.
For example: Penals high vet bonuses or Royal Engineers lack of accuracy boost. Both have one thing in common. Weapon upgrades. The main thing which the game revolves around during the mid to late game, is how much muni investment you can put into your infantry. Lack of them makes units scale poorly, as a unit which lacks them have a harder time if they don't have enough vet. On the other hand, cheap units which gain access to weapon racks, need to have their offensive boost in check.

Which brings to the main point of this thread: why Sturmpio "fails" during the mid to late game.

- Powerspike/powerboost coming from light vehicle shock units, upgraded infantry or elite infantry.
- Short range units have a harder time, if they don't have tools to close the gap. Smoke, sprint, grenades, something which lets them not get bleed as much on approach.
- If you want to keep using SP offensively at that point in the game, you must constantly use the Concussion grenade. Your vet 2 generally opposes the combat bonuses from vet 2 from other units. You have to hit vet 4 to actually oppose enemy units vet 3.

The only sensible change then would be if it's better having the accuracy boost at vet3 or keep the nade where it is. One nerfs people who actually make use of it and the other is just braindead simple buff on performance overall.


Different kind of mid game buff:

-Let them be able to upgrade to both Schreck and Minesweeper.
-Schreck should be able to have the same function as the sweeper to be hidden.
-Only one can be active at the same time.
-Once both upgrades are bought, you can't no longer swap upgrade with STG. Instead the button will change into a toggle between both Schreck and Sweeper.
-Implement a small munition cost for the change (20-30 muni range) or make it have a long cooldown (2 mins aprox).
A small cost which is in the range of a snare/grenade or a long cooldown to avoid constant swapping between both.

Thank you for actually attempting to understand the intent behind the question 'Why is their veterancy so bad?'

What it FEELS like to me is that they can compete with units in the early game, the second midgame rolls around, they struggle with everything except cons. Until cons reach vet 3. I guess its the weapon upgrades that make it feel like this.

By comparing them to other factions engineer units, is not a fair comparison, because sturms cost as much as penals, and are expected to be a front line combat unit. Why would you ever relegate a unit with 4xstgs to only repairing?

Also, I would never get the shrek upgrade, EVER. Its a 4 man squad with a shrek and they feel squishier than a volks squad whilst being more expensive. After ~10 mins, they struggle to hold their own against ALL allied infantry, so why give them a pzshrek, when the squad is likely to get 1-shot by stray tank shells whilst helping repel an armoured assault? That would also mean you need 2x Sturmpionier which is a terrible idea as you need a minesweeper always.

Glad to see that you changed your mind and you know agree with my post.

Why reply to him? all he does is troll.

Invised posts for excess flame


Wow that devolved quickly. Anyways a lot of sturms dropping off like stones has to do with weapon upgrades. BARs/brens/DP28 boost combat effectivness of sturms opposition so much that they get out gunned massivly if they attempt to close the gap. That coupled with the fact they're just worse pgrens, don't have their DPS shifted to weapon upgrades so they lose larger % of their DPS when models drop etc, makes them just meh unless they can sit around shotblockers. They also have too many roles to fill which makes it hard for them to just camp shot blockers as well.

I think the unit would work better if we made them complete Pgren clones but made their "Pgren StGs" upgrades that they could buy at a similar time Pgrens would come out. That'd help with scaling a bit better since Pgrens have no problem in that department. Or just go the easy route and making their veterancy bonuses final result equal to that of pgrens.

As to the excessive flaming, I think people prefer to flip out without reading the question. I tried to keep it less than one line to prevent this, but it still failed...

I like this idea, but replacing stg with stg seems silly.

Why not give them mp40 or rifles as a pzgren clone and then give them upgrades to stg at the same time pzgren comes out.

As to the excessive flaming, I think people prefer to flip out without reading the question. I tried to keep it less than one line to prevent this, but it still failed...

I like this idea, but replacing stg with stg seems silly.

Why not give them mp40 or rifles as a pzgren clone and then give them upgrades to stg at the same time pzgren comes out.

As for the flame, there are some who tend to see balance through less than obscured lenses, which is why they sometimes panic and do things when suggestions are suggested.

I didn't mean have them retain the StGs and get better StGs, I did mean exactly as you suggested, have them start with weaker MP40s but upgrade into the Pgren StGs.

Firstly. It's NaOCl.

Secondly, I didn't make an argument, I ASKED A QUESTION, perhaps going to school might have helped you understand the difference. I'll repeat for the ones among us who didn't ever manage to learn comprehension.

"Why is their veterancy so bad?"

I wanted to understand the REASONING and DESIGN PHILOSOPHY behind why they don't scale well into the late game.

IE is it to stop double sturmpionier being a viable opening? Some other reason?

Firstly, I dont care about spelling your name correctly ncal.

Secondly, you are right. You did not make an argument, but you carried an argument with Blancat over from another thread. This time, the word "argument" refers to the act of arguing.

argument
/ˈɑːɡjʊm(ə)nt/Submit
noun
noun: argument; plural noun: arguments
1.
an exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one.
"I've had an argument with my father"

2.
a reason or set of reasons given in support of an idea, action or theory.
"there is a strong argument for submitting a formal appeal"

You can argue about your argument (Your Point) through engaging in an argument or the act of arguing. A real clunky sentence but hey ))))))) - I thought school was supposed to teach you words can have multiple meanings, I guess your school must have failed you

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Why is their veterency bad? Because they are an engineer unit.

For 300 MP you get a unit that is able to sweep, lay mines, build things, and have a use early on. With the sweeper they also get a repair bonus I think to reflect their higher MP cost relative to other engineer-type units.

The fact that they get shrecks also meant they want to keep the veterency power reasonable to prevent a blob of high vet sturms stomping everything. They aren't really meant to form the core of your force. You got Volksgren for that.

Thank you for actually attempting to understand the intent behind the question 'Why is their veterancy so bad?'

What it FEELS like to me is that they can compete with units in the early game, the second midgame rolls around, they struggle with everything except cons. Until cons reach vet 3. I guess its the weapon upgrades that make it feel like this.

By comparing them to other factions engineer units, is not a fair comparison, because sturms cost as much as penals, and are expected to be a front line combat unit. Why would you ever relegate a unit with 4xstgs to only repairing?

Also, I would never get the shrek upgrade, EVER. Its a 4 man squad with a shrek and they feel squishier than a volks squad whilst being more expensive. After ~10 mins, they struggle to hold their own against ALL allied infantry, so why give them a pzshrek, when the squad is likely to get 1-shot by stray tank shells whilst helping repel an armoured assault? That would also mean you need 2x Sturmpionier which is a terrible idea as you need a minesweeper always.

Not sure where is the comparison with other factions engineers. I just showed you how vet works. EFA engineers have way lower than normal combat bonuses. RE/RET have slight below and different than normal vet accounting that they can equip either AI or AT weapons.
In case you miss it, they have the same vet bonuses as other combat oriented units and +10% over CD values (5% if you take into account automatic weapon users).


I'll give you an advice word: only a sith noob deals in absolutes. 95% of the time you'll want a sweeper cause you are more than likely gonna have a singular SP. Apart from playing 1v1, on teamgames you can depend on your teammate and your options increase. Depending on map and match up, you might find yourself with a double OKW, going double SP or just facing USF (which tends to lay way less mines and besides M20 they are less dangerous). When game drags to mid-late game artillery can be a factor so mines get blow up as well.

The upgrade is not there for you to spam SP and chase around tanks but may them think twice when they try to dive your line to kill your Schewerer or raks.

Just because you have it, doesn't mean you need it. Just because you don't always need it, don't forget it's there.