OKW's 221 is too weak for its 20 fuel cost

50 fuel? it takes 35 fuel to get the 221...

again u are forgetting okw start with 15 less fu than other

If you are incuding M20, you might just as well include 222.
Not that it makes any sens to do so for either of them.

again u are forgetting okw start with 15 less fu than other

15 fuel for truck + 20 fuel for 221 is how much?

If you are incuding M20, you might just as well include 222.
Not that it makes any sens to do so for either of them.

15 fuel for truck + 20 fuel for 221 is how much?

again maybe u don't understand so here form the patch notes:

OKW CHANGES

Starting Resources
• Starting fuel reduced from 10 to 5

everyone else start with 20(i don't remember ukf) that's -15 fuel from the start so it's 50 fuel to reach instead, again tell me how everything is free

again maybe u don't understand so here form the patch notes:

OKW CHANGES

Starting Resources
• Starting fuel reduced from 10 to 5

everyone else start with 20(i don't remember ukf) that's -15 fuel from the start so it's 50 fuel to reach instead, again tell me how everything is free

I don't think you know what you're talking about here...
It makes ZERO sense what you just said and whatever point you're trying to make, you're the only one who can see it, you're doing METH, not MATH.

OKW needs a total of 35 fuel to pump 221, they start with 5, that means they need to gather 30 fuel to get 221.

Everything you try to add on top of that is utter nonsense.

Also.... you DO realize you do NOT need to DEPLOY truck to call 221? Just have one on field?

again maybe u don't understand so here form the patch notes:

OKW CHANGES

Starting Resources
• Starting fuel reduced from 10 to 5

everyone else start with 20(i don't remember ukf) that's -15 fuel from the start so it's 50 fuel to reach instead, again tell me how everything is free

heres that dumb argument again... meanwhile okw starts with more MP than any other faction bar none...

heres that dumb argument again... meanwhile okw starts with more MP than any other faction bar none...

No

Sov: 390/20

Ost: 420/20

USF: 400/20

OKW: 340/5

UKF: 340/20

No

Sov: 390/20

Ost: 420/20

USF: 400/20

OKW: 340/5

UKF: 340/20

No.

Starting menpower for all factions is supposed to be 500 minus starting squad cost.
UKF gets 60 bonus.
Ost gets 80 bonus.
OKW gets 100 bonus.

You have that in the very patch notes.

No.

Starting menpower for all factions is supposed to be 500 minus starting squad cost.
UKF gets 60 bonus.
Ost gets 80 bonus.
OKW gets 100 bonus.

You have that in the very patch notes.

"Supposed to" according to what measure? One from five years ago?

And of course the point is moot since the face remains that OKW does not start with the most MP. If you want to compare starting MP plus the starting unit value, feel free to, but that isn't what the above posters were talking about so don't conflate the two.

"Supposed to" according to what measure? One from five years ago?

Yes, exactly that, from before they gave free menpower to both axis factions and then some to usf so the last can actually start building 2nd infantry unit at the start.
Its called balance and its one of the core balance features which was bombarded by exceprions, because reasons.

And of course the point is moot since the face remains that OKW does not start with the most MP. If you want to compare starting MP plus the starting unit value, feel free to, but that isn't what the above posters were talking about so don't conflate the two.

Again, it does.
It gets most expensive and most effective squad at start out of all factions and gets that very extra 100mp to instantly build volks.
While they may have formulated their point incorrectly, its undisputed fact that OKW starts with most menpower resources out of all factions combined with starting mp and starting squadm, that is literally how that mechanic is working and 500 minus starting squad is principle mechanic that only 2 factions still apply to.
You know how vipper is always whining for consistency instead of random exceptions all over the place?
Well sorry to break it to you, but due to that very random exception OKW starts with most menpower resources in game and just because you don't see that on the menpower number doesn't mean its not true, because these sturmpios do have a worth, regardless if you understand it or not.

I think realigning to the starting 500mp for all would be a good decision. Start okw with Volks instead of sturms and then they can chose to open with a 2nd volks off the bat or wait slightly and get a Sturm. This would help with the Soviet matchup slightly as well.

No

Sov: 390/20

Ost: 420/20

USF: 400/20

OKW: 340/5

UKF: 340/20

false
sov starts with 390 + 170 (CE) = 560
ost 420 + 200 (Pio) = 620
USF 400 + 200 (RE) = 600
OKW 340 + 300 (sturm) = 640
UKF 340 + 280 (IS) = 620

false
sov starts with 390 + 170 (CE) = 510
ost 420 + 200 (Pio) = 620
USF 400 + 200 (RE) = 600
OKW 340 + 300 (sturm) = 640
UKF 340 + 280 (IS) = 620

May wanna revisit that Soviet value. I know CE only FEEL like 120mp units but...

owwshit thats a mistake its 560 typo...

Aside from manpower worth starting with sturms as okw or an infantry section as brits is far superior tactically to starting with combat engineers, pios, or rear echelons. There is literally no proper matchup that rear echelons can win in or even trade in and meanwhile okw and brits both start with terminators by early game standards.

Aside from manpower worth starting with sturms as okw or an infantry section as brits is far superior tactically to starting with combat engineers, pios, or rear echelons. There is literally no proper matchup that rear echelons can win in or even trade in and meanwhile okw and brits both start with terminators by early game standards.

there is 1.... combat engineers... quite literal worst combatant ingame bar none

there is 1.... combat engineers... quite literal worst combatant ingame bar none

Rear echelons never actually fight combat engineers so that’s more or less irrelevant. I’m talking axis vs. allies matchup. But even so, rear echelons are significantly more expensive to reinforce 25 for rears vs 17(?) for combat engineers. Also combat engineers can have flamers. The only thing that rear echelons are actually good for is smoke and bazookas, which is pretty much fine IMO but that was irrelevant to the point I was originally trying to make, since they have neither in the very early game.

CE are actually a massive 22mp (massive for Soviet anyways) which puts them as more expensive per man than cons and weapon crews. But this isnt about CE. RE at least can be pressed into AT and get that juicy 5th model that let's them at least tie up enemies. Plus they get to stay on the front vs having to retreat into the base so they can build bases or having to use them for repairs. RE are OK being as they are because they arnt really needed for anything else they are cheap bodies.

I don't think you know what you're talking about here...
It makes ZERO sense what you just said and whatever point you're trying to make, you're the only one who can see it, you're doing METH, not MATH.

OKW needs a total of 35 fuel to pump 221, they start with 5, that means they need to gather 30 fuel to get 221.

Everything you try to add on top of that is utter nonsense.

Also.... you DO realize you do NOT need to DEPLOY truck to call 221? Just have one on field?

yes but the problem was that it would come sooner than counters,but as i proved u need 50 fuel(cause okw start with 5 fu instead of 20) before u can call it in and by that time u have the counters ready (as other start whit 20 fu)

I don't think you know what you're talking about here...
It makes ZERO sense what you just said and whatever point you're trying to make, you're the only one who can see it, you're doing METH, not MATH.

OKW needs a total of 35 fuel to pump 221, they start with 5, that means they need to gather 30 fuel to get 221.

Everything you try to add on top of that is utter nonsense.

Also.... you DO realize you do NOT need to DEPLOY truck to call 221? Just have one on field?

Aight but here's the comparison I'm seeing: to field an M3a1 the Soviet need to gather 5 fuel and the m3a1 allows for transporting troops and outside playing against Helen Keller will beat a 221 outright. No, being able to do a med kit does not offset the extra 25 fuel required and lack of garrison. The 223 is worth its costs. The 221 is not.

Aight but here's the comparison I'm seeing: to field an M3a1 the Soviet need to gather 5 fuel and the m3a1 allows for transporting troops and outside playing against Helen Keller will beat a 221 outright. No, being able to do a med kit does not offset the extra 25 fuel required and lack of garrison. The 223 is worth its costs. The 221 is not.

And as I have said multiple times, 221 doesn't belong here and if it was up to me, it wouldn't even exist, only 223, alternatively 221 at the timing of 223 with adjusted costs as by that time, even USF should be able to fend it off by using M20 or M15.