can we now fix soviet T2 please?

i wonder how can u tolerate the soviet stealth tank and at guns if so

afaik soviet at guns and tank destroyers only cloak when stationary unlike the rakaten... soo really if youre attempting to equate the two it simply doesnt work...

lastly i have no intention of truly nerfing the OKW panzerfaust behind a 25 fuel tech despite okw having cheaper teching... its part of assymetric balance... (supposedly).. im just trying to pop that "okw has expensive techng" bullshit

no the real point of this entire discussion is that conscripts need to be better to compensate for the expensive side techs... a cost of 220 for cons and increased suppression and damage for the maxim should fix it...

could u at least read what i wrote i just said to copy the 10% move speed of v coh

I read it. But the rak can retreat (I'm fine with this mechanic) and is rather cheap so as long as it can creep its worth the risk to kill something like a Katy. Imo it needs to be toggle camo but have an ambush bonus, ROF or accuracy or even damage

Say it gets to deal 200 damage out of ambush:this means getting it earlier allows the player to, in a properly thought out ambush, counter enemy transports reducing the threat of marauding transports IF PLANNED AHEAD.

All that I want from this game is some strategic planning and less "easy" decisions like upgrading volks or penals or risking 270mp to kill 360mp and 85fu
Camo should be defensive not offensive.

Wehr ambush camo has it right. Sniper camo even has it right rak does not and will not as long as it can possibly hunt for so cheap

ok , first u say i take 2 p4 vs 3 t34 then u magically add a vloks squad, if u calcualte it with other untis it all goes to shit as i can say well 1 tank vs 3 tank the 1 tank win cause u have 4 at gun behind him, 3 t 34 are btter than 2 p 4 in a vacum cause that's the only way u can calculate them , if u count them in context there are too many variable

just so u know there is no side armor only rear( the tank are 50%50 rear and front armor), a t 34 has 100% chance to pen the rear armor of the p 4 and around 50 chance from the front while the p 4 has around 75% to pen the t 34/76 form the front wither u got unlucky or u didn't test while stationary(u were prob moving only the soviet tank and got the accuracy debuff)


again u did not count the starting fuel

like a said for okw it's optional to get LV they CAN skip it, while soviet are mandaory but cheaper (count cost from tier 1 to tier 3 of okw and cost of tier 1/2 to tier 4 for soviet) its the same reason why axis doesn't get optional upgrade they are mandatory but a bit cheaper with less freedom

btw Molotov are not 15 from long time, when was the last time u played soviet ?

by ur logic usf gets 1 2 free squad with thompson out of the stock, 1 free recon , 1 fake falre, 1 of map art, 1 free bar tech, 1 free zook tech,free retreat point,
brits gets free art in map when they tech
and soviet get free merge on cons, free hurra, free 6 man support weapons,

news flash EVERY FACTION pays in some way what they have be more teching cost, side grade, lower performance of the units, missing unit type, etc, if u want u can count unit in a vacuum when they are base but then u can't be picky for what they get after (we only count upgrades not vet, 6 man squads is a feature while axis get thing for free reeee, "well i mean the 25 pounder are shit so they don't count gough*" etc) u either count every advantage a unit has by being in the factions or none, not only what is convenient for u

lastly i have no intention of truly nerfing the OKW panzerfaust behind a 25 fuel tech despite okw having cheaper teching... its part of assymetric balance... (supposedly).. im just trying to pop that "okw has expensive techng" bullshit

no the real point of this entire discussion is that conscripts need to be better to compensate for the expensive side techs... a cost of 220 and increased suppression and damage for the maxim should fix it...

220mp for the Maxim is a no go. It would be spammed harder than ever, even with viable cons.

I think the trick for the Maxim is to stop trying to pretend it's in the same bracket as 4 man mgs and price it accordingly, with proper performance. This can be compensated with cheaper cons.

Basicly Soviet lineups would be sort of con heavy to match squads, with support elements being strong but priced accordingly, if not at a premium.

For example if the Maxim suppressed half way well but was 300mp (random number) spamming would result in low field presence, you would need filler squads to hold the enemy - this would be conscripts. They being cheap chaff and NOT priced the same as proper combat units (as they do not perform as such) would create a nice role of support being SUPPORT and not your mainstay troops.

Similarly elite troops would need to be adjusted with this in mind so that spamming cons into guards wouldn't be viable (perhaps elite troops reinforcing slower and at a premium as well) but I think there is potential in that design philosophy.

I read it. But the rak can retreat (I'm fine with this mechanic) and is rather cheap so as long as it can creep its worth the risk to kill something like a Katy. Imo it needs to be toggle camo but have an ambush bonus, ROF or accuracy or even damage

Say it gets to deal 200 damage out of ambush:this means getting it earlier allows the player to, in a properly thought out ambush, counter enemy transports reducing the threat of marauding transports IF PLANNED AHEAD.

All that I want from this game is some strategic planning and less "easy" decisions like upgrading volks or penals or risking 270mp to kill 360mp and 85fu
Camo should be defensive not offensive.

Wehr ambush camo has it right. Sniper camo even has it right rak does not and will not as long as it can possibly hunt for so cheap

again i said COPY THE V COH PAK 38 it had same pen as usf one without the pen rounds but with almost stationary stealth but with fist strike bonus, thats it

220mp for the Maxim is a no go. It would be spammed harder than ever, even with viable cons.

I think the trick for the Maxim is to stop trying to pretend it's in the same bracket as 4 man mgs and price it accordingly, with proper performance. This can be compensated with cheaper cons.

Basicly Soviet lineups would be sort of con heavy to match squads, with support elements being strong but priced accordingly, if not at a premium.

For example if the Maxim suppressed half way well but was 300mp (random number) spamming would result in low field presence, you would need filler squads to hold the enemy - this would be conscripts. They being cheap chaff and NOT priced the same as proper combat units (as they do not perform as such) would create a nice role of support being SUPPORT and not your mainstay troops.

Similarly elite troops would need to be adjusted with this in mind so that spamming cons into guards wouldn't be viable (perhaps elite troops reinforcing slower and at a premium as well) but I think there is potential in that design philosophy.

nono i meant a price of 220 for the conscript and an increase of suppression and dps of the maxim... oops

nono i meant a price of 220 for the conscript and an increase of suppression and dps of the maxim... oops

Ah OK. I was scared....

ok , first u say i take 2 p4 vs 3 t34 then u magically add a vloks squad, if u calcualte it with other untis it all goes to shit as i can say well 1 tank vs 3 tank the 1 tank win cause u have 4 at gun behind him, 3 t 34 are btter than 2 p 4 in a vacum cause that's the only way u can calculate them , if u count them in context there are too many variable

the implication was flanking with that extra T-34 is normally unfeasable in a battlefield situation unless you wanna get fausted... in a realistic setting those T-34s would come at an offset angle eventually being closed up as the P4s retreat from being flanked which is situation B

just so u know there is no side armor only rear( the tank are 50%50 rear and front armor), a t 34 has 100% chance to pen the rear armor of the p 4 and around 50 chance from the front while the p 4 has around 75% to pen the t 34/76 form the front wither u got unlucky or u didn't test while stationary(u were prob moving only the soviet tank and got the accuracy debuff)

i know how the game mechanics work... i moved the tank since its a flanking tank after all... i cant simulate a perfect engagement but the results still conclude with a decisive panzer 4 victory... the test shows that quite literally the only time the T-34 wins is if the P4 commander is too dumb to move his tank in any direction...

again u did not count the starting fuel

offset by their significantly higher starting MP... okw cutoff and deny sov fuel easier with the increased MP they have... regardless results would mostly be the same except a -15 diff between those numbers... for all intents and purposes i dont add it as the thanks to their increased starting MP... variables would mess everything up

like a said for okw it's optional to get LV they CAN skip it, while soviet are mandaory but cheaper (count cost from tier 1 to tier 3 of okw and cost of tier 1/2 to tier 4 for soviet) its the same reason why axis doesn't get optional upgrade they are mandatory but a bit cheaper with less freedom

OKW can get to LVs cheaper
sov T2 20 + T3 85
vs
okw T2 45 + 15 sws

btw Molotov are not 15 from long time, when was the last time u played soviet ?

mmkay -5 to the fuel calculations ive done then... still it doesnt change anything okw teching remains cheaper...

by ur logic usf gets 1 2 free squad with thompson out of the stock, 1 free recon , 1 fake falre, 1 of map art, 1 free bar tech, 1 free zook tech,free retreat point,

usf doesnt get a free bar anymore nor does it get a free zook... yes USF does get a free retreat point recon and arty... but that arty isnt too good mind you (unlike pathfinders) and the major should never see combat... only the retreat point and recon are good imo

which btw okw gets a free turret and AA building at that point

meanwhile eastern factions (ost and sov) usually dont get free shit (except panzerfaust but its part of balance)... but are SUPPOSED to exchange that free shit for different abilities and high efficiency... grens mg-42 mortars and snipers are REALLY GOOD... conscripts and maxims are worth a hot dumpster fire and compensate with nothing...

its all part of assymetric balance supposedly... but there is no assymetric balance when cons and maxims are complete trash

and soviet get free merge on cons, free hurra, free 6 man support weapons,

ok 2 can play at that game... free fausts free incendiary nades free (no commander needed) weapon upgrades

news flash EVERY FACTION pays in some way what they have be more teching cost, side grade, lower performance of the units, missing unit type, etc, if u want u can count unit in a vacuum when they are base but then u can't be picky for what they get after (we only count upgrades not vet, 6 man squads is a feature while axis get thing for free reeee, "well i mean the 25 pounder are shit so they don't count gough*" etc) u either count every advantage a unit has by being in the factions or none, not only what is convenient for u

meanwhile YOU CLAIMED that OKW pays for sidetechs with trucks which i disproved as complete BULLSHIT... all ive mentioned from the beginning is that they have cons have very few advantages while having soo many...cons.... that it SIMPLY DOESNT MAKE UP FOR IT...

u can't off set by the starting mp cause we are counting fuel here, if u want to off set by mp count the mp for tech cost too (again u are cherry picking the thing u want)

and as i already said they do have cons they just need stv at tier 3 no need to make them cost less screwing up the ost vs soviet match up

if u want to change volks im all in i dont like nor how they play now nor the stg (i said change not nerf)

u can't off set by the starting mp cause we are counting fuel here, if u want to off set by mp count the mp for tech cost too (again u are cherry picking the thing u want)

as i said starting MP is problematic to factor in... it can be used for greater field presence which affects fuel INCOME by alot more than starting fuel... as for cherrypicking its actually a bigger bias to factor in starting fuel without factoring starting MP considering how MP can be traded to fuel by field presence

and as i already said they do have cons they just need stv at tier 3 no need to make them cost less screwing up the ost vs soviet match up

hmm ostheer grens scale much better than conscripts anyways... as per earlygame ost can rely on grens + mg-42 to prevent getting overwhelmed... by the time grens get the LMG they will slaughter cons regardless of their price...

the problem with cons getting the SVT and nerfing the volks to cons level of cost efficiency means WFA infantry can simply slaughter OKW... OKW needs that cost efficiency to stand against WFA infantry... grens on the other hand can team up with the mg-42 x sniper to beat WFA infantry...

in turn grens + mg42 can do to cons like what rifles do to volks... focus firepower and eliminate one by one until LMG-42... this way cons will have a superior earlygame in exchange for an inferior lategame in contrast to the even earlygame and inferior lategame (without PPSH) that we see today... and no ppsh is doc it doesnt count....

if u want to change volks im all in i dont like nor how they play now nor the stg (i said change not nerf)

messing with volks may be a bad idea... they may be plenty times more cost efficient than riflemen... but they trade their cost efficiency for individual strength... rifles can beat them by focusing their firepower...

Knocking 20 mp of from cons wont screw up the ost soviet balance. Ost already has better scaling and a lot better support options and grenades.
Replacing a wiped gren squad hurts ost less because they can just slap an lmg on them and gain vet that much faster and compete again. Cons are pretty hopeless when replaced and fighting vetted squads.

If volks are not to touched because wfa will just roll over them, cons have to made cheaper. 10mp price diiference for such a wide gap in preformance is unacceptable.

Maxim and 82mm mortar also have no bussnis costing the same as the ost counterparts. both maxim and sov mortar are (a lot) worse at their jobs. The maxim should cost 230/240mp max, it cant even stop anything frontaly before they chuck their grenade. the mortar no more then 230 mp.

I know stats mean not everything, but in last tournament double soviets won 55% of their games, double wehr won only 38%.

Many here talk so, like soviets are hopeless underpowered and need this stronger and that cheaper, the lost gren can be easier replaced and such things.
If the stats would be the other way round you could talk about it, but so, you have to be careful to make soviets not even stronger with all this proposals, or at least make some other unit, like penals, weaker in exchange.

I know stats mean not everything, but in last tournament double soviets won 55% of their games, double wehr won only 38%.

Many here talk so, like soviets are hopeless underpowered and need this stronger and that cheaper, the lost gren can be easier replaced and such things.
If the stats would be the other way round you could talk about it, but so, you have to be careful to make soviets not even stronger with all this proposals, or at least make some other unit, like penals, weaker in exchange.

I already recommended a penal nerf to volks clone mosins-260 mp with an optional dp and ptrs upgrade...

I know stats mean not everything, but in last tournament double soviets won 55% of their games, double wehr won only 38%.

Many here talk so, like soviets are hopeless underpowered and need this stronger and that cheaper, the lost gren can be easier replaced and such things.
If the stats would be the other way round you could talk about it, but so, you have to be careful to make soviets not even stronger with all this proposals, or at least make some other unit, like penals, weaker in exchange.

Factions overall may be fine and balanced, but it doesn't mean a single unit isn't op/up.

Want an example?

Brummbar.
Was ost super op as a whole?

Nope, it was just brummbar.

Same case with soviets and cons, soviets do fine, its cons who are completely unusable outside of ppsh doctrines.

Plus, its mainline infantry, the one unit in the whole faction that should be the backbone of it is just a wet noodle and as you might have noticed, you can't build much on wet noodles.

I know stats mean not everything, but in last tournament double soviets won 55% of their games, double wehr won only 38%.

Many here talk so, like soviets are hopeless underpowered and need this stronger and that cheaper, the lost gren can be easier replaced and such things.
If the stats would be the other way round you could talk about it, but so, you have to be careful to make soviets not even stronger with all this proposals, or at least make some other unit, like penals, weaker in exchange.

"we don't need to set the bone in your leg, the crutches offer enough mobility"