About Katyusha's vet1

I'm curious. Why katyushas still have that useless creeping barrage on vet1 instead of the much needed cooldown reduction (or anything usefull at least)?

On the comunity side I think there is a general consensus that "katys don't have vet1" and I've never seen this ability used on any tournament match in the two years I've been playing this game.

This ability has no redeeming quality:
- It's slow
- It costs ammo
- Ends up firing less rockets than a standard barrage
- Its barely more accurate than a standard barrage (and that means a lot, since the rockets have a really small AoE)

If I recall correctly, there was an instance of the previus balance patch when they considered changing its vet1 ability into an area denial incendiary barrage, but it didn't pass the scope requirements.

What about a "hunker down and fire" ability that reduces scatter? Katy becomes immobile for duration and 5 seconds post barrage, to allow for counterplay. Ability is free. Even a scatter reduction of about 5%-20% would still be well worth but if used when your opponet has a potential counter like a werfer or LeFH it could be punished.

Replace its vet 1 with a standard barrage that has Supression. Call it stalins organ and make it cost some munitions

I think the idea is that actually giving the katy something at vet 1 is an unnecessary buff. It performs well at its current power level, so any change that makes it stronger may need to be balanced by a decrease in power somewhere else. Beyond that, the fact that it's a unit that functions well and is at a good power level means that any improvements to the unit (QOL or design, I mean) would probably be low priority.

I think the idea is that actually giving the katy something at vet 1 is an unnecessary buff. It performs well at its current power level, so any change that makes it stronger may need to be balanced by a decrease in power somewhere else. Beyond that, the fact that it's a unit that functions well and is at a good power level means that any improvements to the unit (QOL or design, I mean) would probably be low priority.

Its preforming well so keep it with only 2 functional vet levels like many Soviet units? That's hardly fair. Shouldn't getting kills be rewarded? Why should it take 2x the time to reward the Katy over say the werfer?

At the VERY least reduce the cost of creeping barrage or make it free. It fires 1/3 of the rockets I think that's payment enough for SORT OF directing the rockets no?

Or make it a 1/3 of a barrage at 1/2 the cooldown.

Fuck. Give it Mobility at vet 1.

Dare I say give it FLARES. Something at all...

I've tested creeping barage for some time after it was introduced. Didn't noticed any meaningful difference between it and normal barrage except it fired less rockets IIRC.

Just give it ability to fire all rockets in a single volley for a small muni cost. That would be sufficient.

I think the idea is that actually giving the katy something at vet 1 is an unnecessary buff. It performs well at its current power level, so any change that makes it stronger may need to be balanced by a decrease in power somewhere else. Beyond that, the fact that it's a unit that functions well and is at a good power level means that any improvements to the unit (QOL or design, I mean) would probably be low priority.

All vet 1, vet bonuses, XP values... should be look at and it should one of the highest priorities. This things have not been touch in 5 year in many cases, and can improve balance tremendously.

They do not have to be buffs they can simply bring something different to the table, in the case of kati it could be something as simply as incendiary barrage.

Katies are very good, I don't know what you want.

Is the ability useless? Yes. Is that a problem? No. Just move on.

The cooldown bonus could be spread out through the 3 ranks of vet at least and vet requirements could use a little tweak, but that's it.

Katies are very good, I don't know what you want.

Is the ability useless? Yes. Is that a problem? No. Just move on.

G-guys! St-stooop discussing how to change useless ability! Just stop, oh-okay?

The cooldown bonus could be spread out through the 3 ranks of vet at least and vet requirements could use a little tweak, but that's it.

IMO it is fine as is. You get good reward for keeping katy alive for longer time, but reward is greater. If it will start to kick in earlier it would be easier to get full bonus earlier too. Might be too snowbally.

Katy was so good and uncounterable they decided to nerf it even last patches

Soviets are op bro

IMO there are 4 routes to go with it:

1) Spread the cooldown reduction through the 3 vet ranks.

2) Give it a ability that synergises with its area denial design.
Ex: the incendiary rounds proposed on the last patch

3) Give it a ability that offers utility.
This one I have no idea how to implement, as the katy gets synergised into (ex, mortar flares) that outo

4) Give it a strong alpha strike type of ability
I'm more on the fence with this one, because due to the rocket pool it would be monstruous and far too devastating against small squads


Obiously this will mean changing other stuff of the unit.

Just to clarify: This post isn't about "THE KATY IS SHIT - RELIC PLZ".
Its about its nonexistant vet1 bonus. Remember, a lot of eastern front units had impractical vet1 abilities (tripwire flares, ostheer medikits lol) that are changing in order to open up more options to play

All vet 1, vet bonuses, XP values... should be look at and it should one of the highest priorities. This things have not been touch in 5 year in many cases, and can improve balance tremendously.

I tried making a topic about this a few months ago, but nobody cared sadly.

As for the Katyusha, I'd replace the vet1 ability with an 'indirect strike' ability that lets it fire the rockets like the Panzerwerfer (so able to hit behind shot blockers) at lower range. Adds versatility.


For the love of god no more cooldown bonusses on arty or rocket arty.

All vet 1, vet bonuses, XP values... should be look at and it should one of the highest priorities. This things have not been touch in 5 year in many cases, and can improve balance tremendously.

They do not have to be buffs they can simply bring something different to the table, in the case of kati it could be something as simply as incendiary barrage.

Agree.
But whatever you give it's a directly buff because right now, vet 1 is a net zero. The only way for it to not be a buff, if it you give them another zero.

I tried making a topic about this a few months ago, but nobody cared sadly.

As for the Katyusha, I'd replace the vet1 ability with an 'indirect strike' ability that lets it fire the rockets like the Panzerwerfer (so able to hit behind shot blockers) at lower range. Adds versatility.


For the love of god no more cooldown bonusses on arty or rocket arty.

I'm not a fan of giving it the ability to act as a pwerfer, they need to be distinct and if that Katy can do then it's blatantly better instead of different. There are times when the werfer is better than the Katy, but not if the Katy can alpha strike like the old precision strike.

As I said I think a wider scatter attack with Supression for a cost would offer the Soviet some half not awful blob control. Maybe even half the damage of the rockets.

There is no reason that any unit should have useless vet from Soviet vet 1 abilities to okw vet 4 and 5s. It should all be attainable and an actual improvement.

What if vet1 ability instead of a missile barrage, it shoots every missile by its own in a slower fashion? Scatter should decrease and also the area denyal is present. The muni cost could be removed too, since you expose longer to get caught in order to deal more precise fire.

What if vet1 ability instead of a missile barrage, it shoots every missile by its own in a slower fashion? Scatter should decrease and also the area denyal is present. The muni cost could be removed too, since you expose longer to get caught in order to deal more precise fire.

Do you mean like instead of 3 rapid distinct barrage its all the rockets but over a longer time with a consistent rate of fire kinda closer to say a conventional arty? Could be interesting but I think it's somewhat too vulnerable to be worth it no? If it takes a whole minute to fire all the rockets then building and diving something cheap like a 222 would be well worth it.

What about sort of slowing the ROF but merging all the salvos together so the total time is the same but there are less rockets at any given time and no time between start and finish with no rockets? More area denial but less actual kill potential due to less dice to roll

I'm not a fan of giving it the ability to act as a pwerfer, they need to be distinct and if that Katy can do then it's blatantly better instead of different. There are times when the werfer is better than the Katy, but not if the Katy can alpha strike like the old precision strike.

As I said I think a wider scatter attack with Supression for a cost would offer the Soviet some half not awful blob control. Maybe even half the damage of the rockets.

There is no reason that any unit should have useless vet from Soviet vet 1 abilities to okw vet 4 and 5s. It should all be attainable and an actual improvement.

I also dislike the idea of a pwerfer like alpha strike.

Overall, the idea of incendiarty rounds seems to be the most coherent as it could be apllied to a number of situations. It can be used defensively to cutoff the blob from assaulting a position and could be used to force the enemy to move their support weapons.

But even then, its sounds too much like an flat out upgrade from the normal barrage (don't know how its balanced for mortar halftracks)

A supression barrage will have to do less damage (dont know how to explain it lore wise) but it will outright stop enemy assaults and I kinda dig the "I can supress like a pwerfer, but i have to pay" thing
Stun is another variant if supression is a bit too much

Food for thought :
The Katyusha barrage used to have a suppression element which was removed
after much howling from the infantry blobbing masses.

Consider this : It's an infantry blob rapist. Like the Sherman Calli.
They reduced the Sherman Calli SO DAMN MUCH. Making it's salvos coming
in slower.
- They even made it more vulnerable (!!)

... Panzerwerfer salvo is 10x rockets at once and accurate and deadly.

Yet allied rocket artillery was nerfed to allow Germans to insta-retreat
with minimal loss of anything.

With the extensive AOE nerf to the rockets, damage nerf, salvo slowing
(which not only make it do less dmg, but also keeps Katy longer on
position, making it easier to punish). And removal of suppression...

It's close to useless now.
And the infantry blobbers can now safely ignore it.

Saying it needs a buff (like Sherman Calli) ...

Anything that will improve it will be vetoed.
All the people saying Soviet is OP, or that it's strong enough,
or that it shouldn't be buffed...

Are axis infantry blobbers
I'm sure of it.

All the old soviet precision strikes were removed.

I'm not a fan of giving it the ability to act as a pwerfer, they need to be distinct and if that Katy can do then it's blatantly better instead of different. There are times when the werfer is better than the Katy, but not if the Katy can alpha strike like the old precision strike.

As I said I think a wider scatter attack with Supression for a cost would offer the Soviet some half not awful blob control. Maybe even half the damage of the rockets.

There is no reason that any unit should have useless vet from Soviet vet 1 abilities to okw vet 4 and 5s. It should all be attainable and an actual improvement.

- Katy barrage used to have suppression.
That was removed. After the AOE was halved to allow for the suppression to be added.
- Suppression was then removed.
- Tiny AOE was kept.
- Time between salvoes was sharply reduced.
- Precise strike removed.

Next to Stuka HT and PzWerfer, the Katyusha is effectively useless and too vulnerable.
Nothing to justify it's high pop and price.

Notes on infantry blobbing :
- Maxim nerfed (Longer training, longer set-up, lower suppression)
- Demo nerfed
- Soviet mine nerfed (max 2 kills)
- Flare mine nerfed (max 1 kill)
- AA HT nerfed (sharp reduction of lethality
- T70 also nerfed in AI (although it never was anti blob)
- Katyusha AOE halves, suppression removed, Salvo time doubled.

Every conceivable anti-blob weapon keeps getting nerfed hard.
And then people bitch about immense infantry blobs being the norm