Civil discussion about OKW

STGs literally buff every ranges DPS and work well on the move. Usf BARs they at least need to hit the base sector to equip and ukf do as well unless they sink more mp in. Volks don't even need friendly territory like cons and grens do allowing them to keep up the aggression. No drawback. No Brainer.

BARs literally buff every ranges DPS and work well on the move. OKW STGs they at least need to wait through upgrade times to equip. BAR pickups are near instant unlike volks and grens do allowing them to keep up the aggression. No drawback. No Brainer.

(Seriously, you're retreating units back to base really often anyway. Being upgradeable in enemy territory is as insignificant of an advantage as anyone could possibly come up with, and has very little impact on the game. You also act like BARs aren't no brainers with absolutely no drawbacks either.)

BARs literally buff every ranges DPS and work well on the move. OKW STGs they at least need to wait through upgrade times to equip. BAR pickups are near instant unlike volks and grens do allowing them to keep up the aggression. No drawback. No Brainer.

(Seriously, you're retreating units back to base really often anyway. Being upgradeable in enemy territory is as insignificant of an advantage as anyone could possibly come up with, and has very little impact on the game. You also act like BARs aren't no brainers with absolutely no drawbacks either.)

Did you also read the part where I said that bars are over performing?
Also do BARs not also need to upgrade to unlock? And there is a huge difference between having boots on the front and having to retreat. You CAN press your advantage with Volks and not miss a thing. You HAVE to retreat to base with rifles to get your guns. It's literally a 100% chance that in order to upgun rifles you have to have a unit off the front. If the enemy pushes right then? Well your volks are still upgrading this is true, but at least they are there. They are there with their snare and their grenade and soon their STGs all from the comfort of their green cover.

The thought required with BARs is that you actually have to do something to get them. Do you tech them now and delay your officer? Or get the officer first and delay y mout light vehicle? Do you try and skip it entirely to get that sherman out a bit sooner? Do you retreat a unit now to upgrade or wait until they are beat up? Do you try and single arm a couple squads or double arm them? Do I slap them on the units with more vet or do I need them on the front right now?

Thought process for STGs: do I have the munitions? Full stop.

Hell if the STG needed one of the truck side grades it would be better because SOME sort of though would go into it: do I get the mechanics now or get the luchs out quicker? Should I skip then and try for a quicker schwere and try and make up the AI with Obers?.. There is no choice in the volks design. You don't have to time anything you don't have to consider any choices. For a faction designed to represent a resource starved Germany they seem to have less supply issues than any other faction.

I never undertand this argue: " I must retreat to base to get my weapons"

Yes..u must retreat to get them...but what do u want tell us? That ur squad wouldnt else need back to base in the next 1-2 minutes. Than u maybe play false/right / vs an AFK player...

This is going to be the final warning.

Keep it civil.

I never undertand this argue: " I must retreat to base to get my weapons"

Yes..u must retreat to get them...but what do u want tell us? That ur squad wouldnt else need back to base in the next 1-2 minutes. Than u maybe play false/right / vs an AFK player...

You know what field presence is and why conceding it is bad for map control?
Volks do not even need to be on friendly territory to upgrade.

From my post in another thread:

"I did this comparison for cons, but now I think it would help to do it for riflemen too. Raw numbers in the top section, relative ratios at the bottom, sorry for the formatting:

Rifle squad effective durability: 5.15 effective models

Volks: 5 effective models

Rifle squad DPS at max range: 8.49 DPS

Volks: 9.035 DPS

Rifle squad DPS at 3 range: 33.945

Volks squad DPS at 0 range: 23.71

Rifle squad vet 0, 1 bar, 34* range DPS: 10.835 DPS

Volks vet0, 2 stgs, 34* range: 9.488 DPS

(*volks stgs spike up in DPS from 1.446 at 35 to 1.96 DPS at 34, given this detail, its probably more useful and informative to take the DPS at 34 and not 35)

Rifles, vet 0, 1 bar, close (3 range): 40.36 DPS

Volks, vet 0, 2 stgs, close (0 range): 29.266 DPS

Rifles, vet 3 effective durability: 7.81

Volks vet 3 durability: 6.49

Rifles, vet 3, 2 bars, 34 range: 18.062

Volks, vet 5, 2 stgs, 34 range: 13.326

Rifles, vet 3, 2 bars, 3 range: 64.439

Volks, vet 3, 2 stgs, 0 range: 39.779




Rifles/volks vet 0 effective durability: 103%

Rifles/volks vet 0 DPS max range: 94%

Rifles/volks vet 0 DPS close: 143%

1 bar squad/2 stg squad, vet 0, 34 range: 114%

1 bar squad/2 stg squad, vet 0, close range: 138%

Rifles/volks vet 3 effective durability: 120%

2 bar squad/2 stg squad, vet 3, 34 range: 136%

2 bar squad/2 stg squad, vet 3, close range: 162%


Didn't double check my calculations. Even counting the difference in utility (flame nades, and sandbags) and rack costs, to me, these numbers justify rifles costing 12% more. If you make rifles 260/26 as some have suggested, then ask yourself whether or not the utility that volks bring is actually equivalent to these combat advantages rifles have."

So yes, I DO think volks are operating according to cost. I could do the same comparison against tommies or penals, but there's no point. The results are already pretty obvious. I already did the work for this comparison though, so it's at least fairly easy to copy paste this every time someone decides to make a post that either makes up random numbers, rewrites facts, or ignores how the game ACTUALLY works.

Anyway, none of your statements about how allies are forced to use their infantry in the OKW matchup actually necessarily have to do with volks' cost efficiency, or even performance.

Did you also incorporate volks 12 dmg shots cause overkill inefficiencies?

What exaclty is the disadvantage of OKW? There is none.

This:
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Avoid OKM powerspikes, or be ready for their offensives. If you cant predict the enemy attacks you have already failed.

All factions have disadvantages.
Edit: Yes i used comics sans, sue me if you dare!

Did you also incorporate volks 12 dmg shots cause overkill inefficiencies?

It's a foot note more than anything. The math on it isn't really straightforward, so theres no single way to alter the numbers to incorporate them that actually gives you a useful change to the values.

Did you also read the part where I said that bars are over performing?

The thought required with BARs is that you actually have to do something to get them. Do you tech them now and delay your officer? Or get the officer first and delay y mout light vehicle? Do you try and skip it entirely to get that sherman out a bit sooner? Do you retreat a unit now to upgrade or wait until they are beat up? Do you try and single arm a couple squads or double arm them? Do I slap them on the units with more vet or do I need them on the front right now?

Which has nothing to do with the fact that BARs, just like stgs, are an upgrade at all ranges. You made it seem like stgs are some terrible evil because they're a no brainer upgrade, implying that this was somehow exclusive to stgs. Honestly, I don't even believe no brainer upgrades are bad. You always upgrade lmg42s, lmg34s, stgs, thompsons, so this is hardly exclusive to volks (or axis, if someone wants to make that argument).

If volks are a/the problem, tell me why. The numbers I posted surely don't support that notion.

If stgs are the problem, tell me why. If "they can upgrade in enemy territory" is the best argument there, then I probably don't even need to say anything for that argument to lose momentum. If "they're a no brainer upgrade" is the argument, then why is this a problem for stgs and not every other no brainer upgrade in the game (on a side note, the game would be pretty boring without no brainer upgrades, as you would just see smgs/lmgs vs smgs/lmgs and it's always a-moving or running straight up to the other). If their performance is a problem, show me how thats the case with actual numbers (something akin to the numbers that I posted; the ones that suggest the contrary).

The thought required with BARs is that you actually have to do something to get them. Do you tech them now and delay your officer? Or get the officer first and delay y mout light vehicle? Do you try and skip it entirely to get that sherman out a bit sooner? Do you retreat a unit now to upgrade or wait until they are beat up? Do you try and single arm a couple squads or double arm them? Do I slap them on the units with more vet or do I need them on the front right now?

Except that theres very little thinking there since I could tell you the right answer to those questions. Never tech them before your officer. Always get racks before your first medium. Don't retreat units just to upgrade them. I can't imagine that any top player will tell you otherwise. Deciding whether to upgrade a vetted unit or an unvetted one is a decision for literally all upgrades that arent purchased as soon as a unit hits the field, this isn't something exclusive to BARs that make them better or more interesting for the game. The only real decision is whether you get them before or after any possible light vehicle. Word it however you like, people who play the game know that upgrading racks isn't some engaging tech decision that requires a bunch of thinking.

Hell if the STG needed one of the truck side grades it would be better because SOME sort of though would go into it...

If STGs are a balance issue as you're implying, this would probably be the worst thing you could do. STG performance is kept modest because it doesn't require tech. Assigning a side tech cost to it would require that you buff them. If you buff stgs, then volks really do start to overperform for their cost and OKW rolls over USF in the mid and late game too. If you don't buff stgs, then no one will upgrade them, and you mess up what is otherwise a fairly balanced matchup (sov vs okw).

If you want to argue that their availability is an issue that deserves to be fixed even in spite of that, I'd ask why? If your argument is that "free" upgrades make in game decision making boring, then my argument is that free upgrades make the game fun to play for every faction. Get rid of techless stgs, and OKW becomes another faction that side techs for weapons (weapons which are now presumably of a comparable power level to the BARs and brens that similarly require side tech). The fact that one faction gets a "techless", but less powerful weapon upgrade creates an asymmetry that actually translates to unique faction identities.

The only real issue I have with Volks STGs is that it makes people who are new or unfamiliar with stats think they have to fight with upgraded volks at mid to close and hurts their long range (obviously this is incorrect since the STGs are a steriod at all ranges.) This of course isn’t a balance issue an more of an issue with weapons having multiple different preforming profiles that confuse less experienced players.

My only problems with OKW are that

1) it effectively lost its vet 5 bonuses yet still can't build caches,

2) the StG 44 upgrade for Volks isn't worth it and blocks all the squads weapon slots.

My only problems with OKW are that

1) it effectively lost its vet 5 bonuses yet still can't build caches,

2) the StG 44 upgrade for Volks isn't worth it and blocks all the squads weapon slots.

A very unbiased and objective view- I mean opinion of things, thank you for your feedback

My only problems with OKW are that

1) it effectively lost its vet 5 bonuses yet still can't build caches,

2) the StG 44 upgrade for Volks isn't worth it and blocks all the squads weapon slots.

Yea, OKW need some buffs urgently, if you check https://www.coh2.org/topic/83846/ac-2v2-statistics-wildcard-qt1-qt2 stats, OST and OKW had the lowest winrates...

Yea, OKW need some buffs urgently, if you check https://www.coh2.org/topic/83846/ac-2v2-statistics-wildcard-qt1-qt2 stats, OST and OKW had the lowest winrates...

And as I said before, how are stats now suddenly relevant but not back when OKW dominated 1v1 in GCS. But now that it has 3% from 50% it suddenly needs URGENT BUFFS. Not to forget its 2v2 where players hardly are even of same skill level and wont ever have perfect sample unless you have lots of games. Double USF had highest winrate, better nerf USF I guess.

Makes u think

And as I said before, how are stats now suddenly relevant but not back when OKW dominated 1v1 in GCS. But now that it has 3% from 50% it suddenly needs URGENT BUFFS. Not to forget its 2v2 where players hardly are even of same skill level and wont ever have perfect sample unless you have lots of games. Double USF had highest winrate, better nerf USF I guess.

Makes u think

Exactly. OKW doesnt need buffs. Axis players just need to learn how to play without blobbing

And as I said before, how are stats now suddenly relevant but not back when OKW dominated 1v1 in GCS. But now that it has 3% from 50% it suddenly needs URGENT BUFFS.

Yet being 3% above 50% means they desrve URGENT NERFS?

Makes you think.

You cant point to winrates and say OKW isnt UP but deny winrates when talking about how OKW is OP.

Exactly. OKW doesnt need buffs. Axis players just need to learn how to play without blobbing

I want a civil discussion about this.

I read the OP's thread and found out he doesnt play the game, just like katitof doesn't


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