Stug

SU-76 also never got 160 dmg and ability to get shot 3 times by AT gun and not die.

Better vehicles cost more pop cap.

The Jackson got a popcap increase from 12 to 16.
The SU85 got a popcap increase from 12 to 16.
The Firefly got a popcap increase from 12 to 16.

The StuIIIG got a popcap increase from 8 to 10.
10 is the same as a T34/76. And you cost equal or less than one.

StuIIIG rapes SU76 in 1 on 1.
SU76 is also about the price of a StuIIIG
it has less armor
it has less health
it is less maneuvrable
it does WAY less damage.
It has less pen.

StuIIIG can have smoke, pen, leader tank aura. Hulldown.
twp. And other things, I'm sure. Ah, I forgot scope

Yea that's a bit much. To be fair panthers were the real problematic high armour unit since you could get multiple and they are fast. with its armour fallen I'd like to see cuts across the board

You did.

One, Panthers in real life have 90' amazing armor (front). not 180' like in COH2.
And rear/side armor is supposed to be really bleh (worse than a T34). And it had
better rear armor than the front of a T34.

Germans ASKED for Allied TDs to be nerfed.
Allied TDs were nerfed :
Jackson pop 12 to 16.
SU85 pop 12 to 16.
Firefly pop 12 to 16.
SU76 pen reduced.

In return :
Pz4 command tank bonus reduced.
Hulldown +50% ROF removed.
Panther armor reduced (but health buffed!)

If you want StuG to return to 8 pop, and Panther to get it's armor back...
then allied TDs all go back to 12 pop and assemble in massive fleets of TDs

It's not...

A gets nerfed. B gets nerfed.
Ah, B got nerfed so B needs buff.
Ah, historically B was supreme, so it ought to be buffed more.
Nerf allies, buff axis.
Nerf allies, buff axis.
Start game with 20x Flak88 in enemy base, insta-win.
Shoot to #1 on leaderboards.

Best axis player of all time.
wins instantly in all 4vs4 battles.
Bitches that no one plays allies anymore.
Solution simple : Just buff axis more.
Also make games 7x axis vs 1 ally.

Start game with 1000x V2s hitting enemy HQ.

Same philosophy as Scott M8A1 has a 75mm, Sherman 75 has a 75mm, Panther has a 75mm.
PzIIIN has a 75mm. Sherman 76 has a 76mm, SE8 has a 76mm, Firefly has a 77mm. Comet has a 77mm.
Pz4D Command Tank all have a 75-77mm, StuG and Pz4 also has a 75mm. They should all have the same
stats. I can't wait for M8A1 Scott to have Panther armor

StuIIIG has better frontal armor than Pz4.
It has more range than Pz4.
It has more pen than Pz4.
It has more ROF than Pz4.

Thank you.

It also have twp.

No I mean it literally has the same gun and so why don't they have the same stats. I'd cladly trade the current stats like the better range, pen etc to the ones in Pz4 maingun.

No I mean it literally has the same gun and so why don't they have the same stats. I'd cladly trade the current stats like the better range, pen etc to the ones in Pz4 maingun.

Because it's a game. Not a simulation.
One is a TD, and is given specialty AP rounds.
The other is a tank and is given a mix of AP and HE rounds.

A mod where it is as you describe is Spearhead 1.13 (I think)
Give it a whirl, it's good. The lines are more blurred between TD and Tanks, though.
Even Wolverine and Jackson and Firefly have HE rounds. So it cuts both ways.

Have you tried it?

I mean, even the Panther doesn't have HE rounds in COH2.

Why is the stug AT only? It has the same gun as pz IV and should be able to deal the same anti infantry damage.

Why SU-85 is AT only?
It has the same gun as T34/85 and should be able to deal the same anti infantry damage.
(psst, its because tank destroyers are meant to be strong against tanks and weak against infantry)

I'd love to see the stug as it is supposed to be. As a handicapped tank without the moving turret for cheaper cost. I mean its 90 fuel vs 120 fuel to get the same AT capability but it has 0 anti infantry efficiency.

Then you should definitely play CoH1.

Why SU-85 is AT only?
It has the same gun as T34/85 and should be able to deal the same anti infantry damage.
(psst, its because tank destroyers are meant to be strong against tanks and weak against infantry)


Then you should definitely play CoH1.

Ah, shit.
I forgot about SU85 and T34/85. How Soviets stopped making SU85 because of
T34/85 having the same gun and went ahead with making SU85M, then SU100.

Totally the same argument, isn't it?
Is he saying we should make the SU85 have HE shells for free?

I can just imagine StuG being 8 pop.
SU85 being 8 pop (it's just a T34/76 minus turret, so ought to be cheaper!)

And both having HE rounds...

... Should they keep their bonus range, or not?
Because, same gun and all. If Pz4 doesn't have bonus range, StuG shouldn't have it.
Is he saying T34/85 should gain SU85's range? That'd be interesting.

I can EASILY see meta become swarm of SU85s and swarms of StuIIIG.
No more T34s. No more Pz4s at all.

We've all seen what happens when you can spam all-purpose units, right?
I like 6x SU85s blowing up MGs and AT guns at high range. Exploding stacks of vet 3
infantry wiped in seconds...

... anti infantry, building AND anti tank...

I'm starting to like the idea.

...
It has the SAME pen.
....

Penetration values at ranges
Su-76
0/200 30/190 60/180

Stug

0/200 25/185 50/170

Stug actually has less penetration in all ranges accept 0.

Luckily, all allied armor units have lower armor then any of their axis equivalent, IS-2 being only exception, so that 10 pen at far and 5 at mid is completely irrelevant.

Luckily, all allied armor units have lower armor then any of their axis equivalent, IS-2 being only exception, so that 10 pen at far and 5 at mid is completely irrelevant.

Do your math again since you are comparing different ranges or apples and oranges as you would like to say.

The fact is quite simple Stug and SU-76 DO NOT HAVE the same penetration. SU-76 has more penetration in all ranges accept 0.

And there are many allied units with no axis equivalent.

BB and have a nice day.

Do your math again since you are comparing different ranges or apples and oranges as you would like to say.

Ok.

180-170 is 10, which is pen difference at far range.

190-185 is 5, which is pen difference at mid range.

Allied stock meds have 160 armor.
Axis stock meds have 234 and 180 armor.

KV series can be roughly compared to Panther and.... ohhhhh riiiiight, your smugness was right! Comet still has 300 armor! That makes it TWO allied units that have more armor then their axis counterparts as Panther is roughly T4 stock medium, same as panther!

Your high-horsiness were right again!
I shall order peeling another potato medal right away!

Ok.

180-170 is 10, which is pen difference at far range.

190-185 is 5, which is pen difference at mid range.

Allied stock meds have 160 armor.
Axis stock meds have 234 and 180 armor.

KV series can be roughly compared to Panther and.... ohhhhh riiiiight, your smugness was right! Comet still has 300 armor! That makes it TWO allied units that have more armor then their axis counterparts as Panther is roughly T4 stock medium, same as panther!

Your high-horsiness were right again!
I shall order peeling another potato medal right away!

When did OST get access to the stock 234 armour p4?

Axis isn't a single faction so saying that ost have access to a 234 armour medium tank by default is as dumb as saying allies have access to the 300 armour comet.

When did OST get access to the stock 234 armour p4?

Axis isn't a single faction so saying that ost have access to a 234 armour medium tank by default is as dumb as saying allies have access to the 300 armour comet.

(that is why I gave 2 values, it might completely blow your mind off, but soviets do not really have comet either, also since you seem to struggle, I will help you here a bit with a quote)

Axis* stock meds have 234 and 180 armor.

*Axis means more then 1, therefore not only ost, you know, SU-76 do not shoots as ost P4s exclusively, OKW has them too if you look hard enough!

KV series can be roughly compared to Panther and.... ohhhhh riiiiight, your smugness was right! Comet still has 300 290 armor! That makes it TWO allied units that have more armor then their axis counterparts as Panther is roughly T4 stock medium, same as panther!

Keep it civil everyone

Ok.

180-170 is 10, which is pen difference at far range.

190-185 is 5, which is pen difference at mid range.

Allied stock meds have 160 armor.
Axis stock meds have 234 and 180 armor.

KV series can be roughly compared to Panther and.... ohhhhh riiiiight, your smugness was right! Comet still has 300 armor! That makes it TWO allied units that have more armor then their axis counterparts as Panther is roughly T4 stock medium, same as panther!

Your high-horsiness were right again!
I shall order peeling another potato medal right away!

Get your math right:
Stug has penetration 170 at range 50
SU-76 has penetration 183 at range 50
The difference is 13 penetration not 10 or 7.6% more

Stug has penetration 185 at range 25
SU-76 has penetration 192 at range 25
The difference is 7 penetration not 5 or 3.4% more

Comparing penetration at different ranges is misleading, its comparing apples and oranges.

And that simply verifies my claim that Stug and SU-76 DO NOT HAVE the same penetration, SU-76 simply has more penetration in all range other than 0, no matter how much spin you want to add that is an undeniable fact.

Here is another fact you got wrong, the T-34/76 is an allied stock medium and has frontal armor 150 and not 160 as you claim.

Now can you pls quite your silly campaign "proving Vipper wrong", it is not actually working for you and you are wasting the time of everyone in this forum.