How does penetration work

If only you could ever listen to the same advice you give to others so willingy.

Bulldozer Armor:200
Stug G Far Pen: 170
Pak40 Far Pen: 190

It has less armor than a E8, which already is easy prey to StuGs and Paks.
It might bounce one shot, once in awhile, just one shot. Up close it has no chance.

In order to calculate the chance of shot penetrating the armor of vehicle one has to deivde the penetration value of the weapons vs the armor of the vehicle.

For instance:
A stug firing on USF Dozer tank at max range has 170 penetration vs 200 armor:
170/200 = 85% chance to penetrate and 15% to deflect

A Pak firing on USF Dozer tank at max range has 190 penetration vs 200 armor:
190/200 = 95% chance to penetrate and 5% to deflect

A Puma (also include in the list I have provided) firing on USF Dozer tank at max range has 80 penetration vs 200 armor:
80/200 = 40% chance to penetrate and 60% to deflect

That is of course if this shot actually hit either via accuracy or via collision.

Since the majority of Ostheer Weapon have penetration bellow 200 the armor value of Dozer the claim that:
"only thing the Dozer will bounce above a Mauser is a PZ4 round,"
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is simply false if not misleading since even dedicated AT weapons like the Pak and stug can actually bounce when firing on Dozer.

In addition the claim that a Pak has no chance vs Dozer is also false, it closer to the other way around.

(edited to include the Puma)

Did you really feel the need to make a new thread about this? Showing some low% chances to bounce at max range kind of proves his point about it bouncing infrequently.

That moment, when vipper makes a separate thread to reinforce argument of person he is going against.

Nice play from Vipper, however Hans is the guy you want to ask about penetrating.

Did you really feel the need to make a new thread about this? Showing some low% chances to bounce at max range kind of proves his point about it bouncing infrequently.

I could reply in the feedback thread but it imo that the tread should not be burden with BS.

The original claim was that only PzIV (and a mauser) could deflect firing on Dozer. That is simply untrue. I provided a list of 8 AT weapons what can bounce on Dozer with Puma bouncing 6 times out 10 for instance.
post 2098
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I continue point out that the only 3 Ostheer vehicles do not bounce on Dozer, the Panther, the Tiger and the Elephant and their all at the top of the food chain.

He continue by hand picking 2 dedicated AT weapons out of the 8, (the pack and Stug) and made the claim that a Dozer does not stand a chance against a Pak or Stug.
post 2100
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That claim is simply false in the case of Pak, since it is the Pak that does not stand a chance and is an easy prey, under normal conditions.

Imo that is something that should be clarified.

Generally speaking Dozer has around 25% more armor than the average allied medium tank and imo people should be aware of it. Judging from the comments in the feedback thread it seems that some people are not aware of the actual stat of dozer or how they compare to that of Brumbar.


(and since some people seem to waste no time to add fuel into the fire, imo it is better that I have moved this debate away from feedback thread.)

I don't think anyone here is going to argue that 5% to 15% chance to bounce can be considered good odds, but if you think nitpicking wins arguments, fine by me.
Not counting the Pewma, which is mostly to kill light vehicles, any dedicated AT has very good odds to penetrate the SturmSherman, from max range.

This thread is adding nothing to the lobby, I thought you would have learnt your lesson after the mods deleted your KV thread.

I don't think anyone here is going to argue that 5% to 15% chance to bounce can be considered good odds, but if you think nitpicking wins arguments, fine by me.
Not counting the Pewma, which is mostly to kill light vehicles, any dedicated AT has very good odds to penetrate the SturmSherman, from max range.

I never argue 5% or 15% is considered good odds, pls don't put words in my mouth.

The list of weapons and chance to penetrate:
1) Ostwind 17.5%

2) Stug -E 22.5%

3) Puma 40%

4) PzIV 55%

5)Panzer faust 70%

6)Panzerschreck 80%

7)Stug -G 85%

8) Pak 40 95%

Now if you want to talk about dedicated AT lets see what happens on the other sides of the fence:

1) FF chance to Penetrate Brumbar 87.5%
2) SU-85 chance to Penetrate Brumbar 92%
3) M36 chance to Penetrate Brumbar 92%

Unfortunately I have to go off topic and respond here since I would really hate to contribute derailing a feedback thread or starting another thread.

If you're really going to sit here and defend the Brumbar with Dozer comparisons then I don't know what to say...

Then pls do not say anything. Silence is gold.

I also have to point out, I have repeatedly said that brumbar should be nerfed (its lethality) and the Dozer/brumbar comparison is not mine but Relics, it is even in the patch notes.

Play the game Vipper, you'll see one of these units built and even rushed almost every game while the dozer is a unicorn in comparison.

This thread is about the Dozer in MOD which is a completely different unit than the one live.
PLS avoid tuning balance issues into personal issues.

Panzer tactician is the best tank smoke in the game, players such as Hans or Luvnest have all said this repeatidly. It's the ultimate get out of jail card, smoke rounds take time to fire and are not instant.

Panzer tactician and Brumbar are 2 separate issues.

Yes well why don't you give us the vet armour of both units and actual stuff like TTK vs handheld AT or medium tanks? HP means nothing if you are not noting the armour and pen of average tank shooting at them. You posted pen chances in the other thread but you conveniently gloss over them when replying to me, so good job basically proving me right.

Since you accuse of stats manipulation, I would suggest that you stop being lazy and find any stat you want yourself. Cruzz has a very nice page where you can find most stats you need (cheers Cruzz).

But it needs vet 3 and another tank for the silly vacuum perfect unicorn stats you are pushing to say Brumbar is balanced in terms of dozer. Brumbar just needs command P4 and smoke and it's OP on call in, more so at vet 2.

You simply embarrassing yourself "radio net" does need vet 3. Read here or test in game:
https://www.coh2.org/guides/52852/the-coh2-ability-guide

Pointing out the lack of substance to your argument is not a personal remark. Really you argued the point rotation speed>armour in a battering ram unit, not me.

Well you got pretty personal in this post if you ask me.

1) FF chance to Penetrate Brumbar 87.5%
2) SU-85 chance to Penetrate Brumbar 92%
3) M36 chance to Penetrate Brumbar 92%

The SU85 has 200/190/180 pen. Even at short range, the chance to penetrate would be 83%, dropping to 75%. Somehow this isn't stat manipulation?

The SU85 has 200/190/180 pen. Even at short range, the chance to penetrate would be 83%, dropping to 75%. Somehow this isn't stat manipulation?

220/230/240 are current Su85 penetration stats.

220/230/240 are current Su85 penetration stats.

So this:
http://www.coh2-stats.com/ballistic_weapons

is out of date? Is there another website that has current numbers?

So this:
http://www.coh2-stats.com/ballistic_weapons

is out of date? Is there another website that has current numbers?

Yes that's out of date. You can see in the first 3 rows the pak 44 which is mounted on the JT deals 320 damage, where as in DBP both JT and ele were nerfed to 300 damage so they couldn't 2 shot stock mediums.

I do not believe there is any up-to-date source online. Mod tools are up to date though if you'd like to use those.

The SU85 has 200/190/180 pen. Even at short range, the chance to penetrate would be 83%, dropping to 75%. Somehow this isn't stat manipulation?

First of all congratulation for first checking stats before posting, but unfortunately that data is out date us pointed out by ShadowLinkX37.

Cruzz has file you can download that has many stats:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing

You can also find online I think but I don't have a link right now.

hope that this was helpful.

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Oct 2018, 23:28 PMSelvy289

If the argument is they can be equipped with bars, I'll remind you they are ment to Excel at range. If I wanted to equip units with bars, I'll just go riflemen.

Look beside vetterancy requirements being higher, JLI are just becoming blantently superior to pathfinders and I just hate seeing units that are similar become so different in cost/performance.

That is because you incorrectly assume that bar will not benefit Pathfinder in long range, BAR more than double the DPS of the M1a1 carbine so it a great long range weapon for Pathfinders. In addition the BAR spread damage across the enemy entities especially against 4 men squad thus making critical kills from scopes Garand more frequent.

My suggestions where not about increasing their performance but bringing them inline with other units (Veterancy overhaul, reinforcement cost/time, pop )and I actually suggested a price increase when they are being deployed via spawn.


Back in the commander feedback you rebuttal me with how efficient they are on pathfinders when I specifically said they would be better on rifles, now your not, seriously? (not sure how to quote from other threads).

And again I can guarantee if anyone has used both variation of pathfinders, Ir pathfinders are better.

I am having some trouble reading your post mostly due to format and confused at what your point is, so I am not sure what you want to say but it seems like "I want to prove you wrong post".

Imo such posts should not be included in the a feedback thread, so I took the liberty of responding here.

For the record I am suspecting JLIR is over-watch may be problematic due to their very low target combined an commander ability that further boost their received accuracy, I simply have not tested enough to have an educed opinion. I have made suggestion on how they should be deployed

On the other hand moving a infantry like the pathfinders with elite weapon like paratroopers carbine in CP 0 and weapon that can critical kill without at starting on CD is another story, with it own problems. If pathfinders get spammed they can be cancerous especially at vet 3 with their extended range.

if you really want a know the secrets of penetrating then you should ask our best strategist out there - HelpingHans

https://www.twitch.tv/stuve_coh2/clip/FriendlyCloudyTeaSSSsss

I am having some trouble reading your post mostly due to format and confused at what your point is, so I am not sure what you want to say but it seems like "I want to prove you wrong post".

Dam thats rich. Look in a nut shell, befor I said bars are better spent on rifle men and then you filled me out on how they benefit pathfinders more. Then you said they have better synergy with rifles equiped with bars. Thats all.

For the record I am suspecting JLIR is over-watch may be problematic due to their very low target combined an commander ability that further boost their received accuracy, I simply have not tested enough to have an educed opinion. I have made suggestion on how they should be deployed

On the other hand moving a infantry like the pathfinders with elite weapon like paratroopers carbine in CP 0 and weapon that can critical kill without at starting on CD is another story, with it own problems. If pathfinders get spammed they can be cancerous especially at vet 3 with their extended range.

I can see how 0cp pathfinders can be a problem but please bare in mind they cost 290mp (30mp reinforce) and have no abilities and are 4man squads(besides signal relay that is only good if you have paratroopers). Yes they have better sight and range but thats mainly it.

Up most pay small amount of muni for the scoped garands.

Dam thats rich. Look in a nut shell, befor I said bars are better spent on rifle men and then you filled me out on how they benefit pathfinders more. Then you said they have better synergy with rifles equiped with bars. Thats all.

Lets try to clarify.
BAR have good synergy with Pathfinder because of scatter shots. Scatter shot means that if a bar misses the entity it is firing on it would automatically check to hit a entity close to it.

That make the damage distribute among the member of the squad, total health pool might be the same but its spread among the members. That in return make the critical from scoped M1 trigger more often than if only the scoped was firing on entity.

Now if one has 60 mu and 3 squads 1 riflemen, 1 R.E, 1 Pathfinder and he is contemplating who gets the weapon the answer is a bit complicated.

Choice 1 give to R.E.
pros
weapons is the weapon with lowest DPS so that total number of weapons among the 3 squad have better DPS.

R.E. get a great accuracy buff at vet 1 by 20% no other squad get that.

Bar improves volley fire

Cons
R.E. are less durable and might have to retreat

Choice 2 give it riflemen
pros
Weapon will perform better than R.E. once riflemen hit vet 3.
Most durably squad

cons
Total weapons a bit less DPS since a superior garand has been replaced.

Choice 3 give it Pathfinders
Pros
Weapon will perform better even than riflemen once Pathfinders hit vet 3.

cons
Total weapons a even less DPS since a superior Ma1 has been replaced.
Higher chance to drop weapons
Less durably than Riflemen

Does that clarify thing a bit?

Unfortunately I have to go off topic and respond here since I would really hate to contribute derailing a feedback thread or starting another thread.


Then pls do not say anything. Silence is gold.

I also have to point out, I have repeatedly said that brumbar should be nerfed (its lethality) and the Dozer/brumbar comparison is not mine but Relics, it is even in the patch notes.



This thread is about the Dozer in MOD which is a completely different unit than the one live.
PLS avoid tuning balance issues into personal issues.


Panzer tactician and Brumbar are 2 separate issues.


Since you accuse of stats manipulation, I would suggest that you stop being lazy and find any stat you want yourself. Cruzz has a very nice page where you can find most stats you need (cheers Cruzz).


You simply embarrassing yourself "radio net" does need vet 3. Read here or test in game:
https://www.coh2.org/guides/52852/the-coh2-ability-guide


Well you got pretty personal in this post if you ask me.

Where did I say radionet needs vet 3? Your argument was comparing brumbar to dozer with radionet and vet 3 RoF, which requires vet 3 stats to stack (and another tank).

Unless you think vet 3 stat magically appear at vet 1 when radio net kicks in?

You're the one that was bringing up dozer comparisons bragging about how good it is with its rotation speed (lol). This is why multiple people have picked apart the flaws in your points, but here we have another thread where you focus on the wording of other posters while glossing over their point to try and play the "I win the argument card" again.

I specifically challenged your point about the health of the dozer as I pointed out armour AND penetration of what it's getting hit at factor in a lot too, which is why I felt the brum is too survivable. But guess what? we have another post of you glossing over my point while you focus on a strawman about vet 3 radionet I never even claimed?!?


Two posts ago you were singing the dozers praises in comparison how great it is with HP etc and now you're backpedaling saying the Brum is OP.

Make up your mind vipper, hey what am I saying you'll just come back with another strawman.

First of all congratulation for first checking stats before posting, but unfortunately that data is out date us pointed out by ShadowLinkX37.

Cruzz has file you can download that has many stats:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing

You can also find online I think but I don't have a link right now.

hope that this was helpful.

Thanks for the link to Cruzz's file. I eventually found the increase in SU-85 penetration in the patch notes but it's tedious searching for everything that way.