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USF Tech Changes Mod Changelog

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17 Nov 2018, 12:01 PM
#61
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1



True, although I cannot help but recall that the whole reason Ostheer has a t0 MG42 was because of the effect of officers hitting the field.

A minute sooner is not insignificant for establishing early game field presence. That and a 150mp captain squad by 60 fuel may revisit that initial pacing issue between USF and Ostheer. Time and testing will tell.

I feel like a 50 fuel captain with ATG/Pak Howie and a 'side-tech' for the Stuart, not AAHT, may work. At 20 fuel it would not change the pacing of the Stuart while allowing ATGs and Pak Howies a sooner field presence.

The LT could keep these proposed changes, but the 0.5 tech could unlock the AAHT and the M20. The proposed changes for the M20 are necessary for that unit regardless of teching adjustments.

This would grant faster officers, as is apparently so desired, and a cheaper way to go both LT and Captain without affecting the pacing of Major tier or any vehicle. The cost difference for both LT and Captain without any half-step teching would be 10 more fuel.

Which is already shaved off the cost of grenades.


At the moment, when USF first officer hit the field, Ostheer have more squads on the BF. I don't think the officer will arrive before Ostheer 4th gren in a 3xRM BO. If he hits the field sooner than that, that's mean there is one riflemen squad less, or 2xRE + 2xRM or 1xRE + 2xRM.

What is going to make the matchup Ostheer / USF more dynamic is the grenade fuel reduction cost + Lieutenant fuel reduction cost.

I also proposed different changes for USF but it seems Relic wants to keep free officers and bi-direction teching, fair enough if it works!
17 Nov 2018, 12:02 PM
#62
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2

While not part of the overall tech problem I also wanted to take the time to mention of the issue of the USF healing.

Currently the Ambulance is mostly used around the base, and I have seen in a lot of games and read a lot of cases where the enemy swoops in with a fast light vehicle and just kills the Ambulance in a few shots and then retreats, effectively denying the USF player healing.

What I suggest is a 3rd upgrade, medics, be added to the USF HQ to allow for an alternative base only healing option.

Now a lot of people will jump on it saying that it's making it similar to the Soviets but I see no other option, nobody else's healing is so fragile and limited as with the USF's and everybody has an alternative, maybe besides the Soviets, at least non-doctrinally.

Edit:

While yes you could just decrew your medics it's still a problem to constantly micro them to heal.
17 Nov 2018, 12:08 PM
#63
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 955

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Nov 2018, 11:40 AMKatitof


Could you guys maybe change PACK howi already?
T0 mortar makes it irrelevant, so does T3 scott.

Could you just remove auto fire, increase barrage shells to 5-7 and make it into a proper USF mobile arty this way?
Obviously, barrage performance would be as it is now, just remove auto attack and add some more shells so its worth considering the unit, adjust cost if needed.

It would finally provide USF a cooldown only, non doctrinal barrage weapon that all the other factions have that wouldn't be awkward major arty.

PACK howi atm is not needed and irrelevant, 2 more cost efficient units make it irrelevant and it doesn't serve any unique role in USF army.

End quote here

Nope
Pack Howie is much better than the mortar at killing and doesnt spend most of its existence repositioning and retreating, unlike the mortar (due to its range makin it a direct fire unit)
It also doesnt burn 75 fuel, delaying an already late-ish arriving armor quite significantly
But then again, the proposed redesign might make it even more interesting


Also completely agree with the unqouted lower half of your post and I dont bloody understand how does anyone think that this is ruining uniqnes.
There is no other faction whos teching system works like this.
17 Nov 2018, 12:16 PM
#64
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

What I suggest is a 3rd upgrade, medics, be added to the USF HQ to allow for an alternative base only healing option.


My favourite solution is to add a Major-style lockdown ability to the medic squad that creates a little healing station with the Ambulance's AoE aura. Restrict the ability to the base sector if need be.

That lets you decrew your Ambulance to get a more durable but less mobile healing station, and recrew your Ambulance with Rear Echelons to get a mobile one for use on the field.
17 Nov 2018, 12:19 PM
#65
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Nov 2018, 12:16 PMLago


My favourite solution is to add a Major-style lockdown ability to the medic squad that creates a little healing station with the Ambulance's AoE aura. Restrict the ability to the base sector if need be.

That lets you decrew your Ambulance to get a more durable but less mobile healing station, and recrew your Ambulance with Rear Echelons to get a mobile one for use on the field.


That could also work yeah. I agree.

Edit: There is even a model for that left over from CoH.
17 Nov 2018, 12:24 PM
#66
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8


Nope
Pack Howie is much better than the mortar at killing and doesnt spend most of its existence repositioning and retreating, unlike the mortar (due to its range makin it a direct fire unit)
It also doesnt burn 75 fuel, delaying an already late-ish arriving armor quite significantly
But then again, the proposed redesign might make it even more interesting


Also completely agree with the unqouted lower half of your post and I dont bloody understand how does anyone think that this is ruining uniqnes.
There is no other faction whos teching system works like this.


Mortar range: 80
Pack howi auto attack range: 80(or is it still 60?)

Barrage range: 160

So auto attack part is irrelevant and hindering to the unit already.

Rework like that would give USF very exposed due to being inf only "katy" type unit.
17 Nov 2018, 12:29 PM
#67
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Nov 2018, 11:40 AMKatitof

....
Each faction used to be balanced like that.
It was unbalanced, because it can't be balanced when different factions have different strengths at different game stages and these "unique strengths" are impossible to be made all game lasting (how is USF strong early infantry presence going to transfer into late game? Why should Ost have armor advantage, letting them close the game against USF just by outlasting them? etc.)

If redesign is needed to keep the game AND ALL the factions relevant, then so be it.

The redesigns happen, because what we had previously DID NOT WORKED.
I'd rather have redesigned and balanced game, then do your beloved "stick to old, irrelevant, proven in action not working design".

Stop clinging to old, obviously broken and not working solutions.

I for one welcome very much this new USF half tier structure, it worked perfectly well for PE in CoH1, it allowed for varied build orders and its flexible enough to adjust unit timings or combinations easily and most importantly, its unique in CoH2 as closest to that tech is what UKF has and UKF still is unique enough with powerful but exclusive options.

Dear Katitof PLS stop doing the personal insult thing or fixating on what I do or do not, I am not the topic of this thread.
Also PLS try to take the time to read and understand what other write before starting to type.

I clearly said either keep faction unique and try to balance or change ALL faction at the same time to be similar including UKF and OKW and start balancing. Having a faction redesigned every six months is simply counter productive.

You claim that unique factions can no be balanced is simply wrong, prime examples include vanilla COH1, vanilla COH2 and starcraft.

The trend to redesign faction every now and then has left long lasting issues untended for much too long. Issues that could actually greatly improve balance like:

1) XP values
2) Veterancy Bonuses
3) Vet abilities
4) Pop
5) Reinforcement cost
6) Reinforcement time
7) Armor values
8) Doctrinal abilities
9) Commander designs (op combinations)

If this USF faction redesign go head all this very important aspect of the game will remain in the same state they have been for the last 5 year. Actually in worst state since many on these units have changed roles.
17 Nov 2018, 12:46 PM
#68
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1


At the same time though, paratroopers and pathfinders become more attractive. You usually dont have room for them because youre forced to get so many infantry squads. With the officer potentially arriving as the 3rd purchased unit, paratrooper builds might be less awkward.


That's definitely true, but wouldn't rangers be more ideal? They come in a better doctrine and are just as good as para except for more open maps where the 30 cal paras do better. I'll probably still use Airborne after but having two less relevant abilities hurts the doctrine.

Dream is comin true
Finally a USF where u make other decisions than just which rifle squad should u put the BAR on. :clap::thumb:

Lets admit it, the AA HT and Pack Howie half tech are blatantly a better option than an M20 and Stuart, but other than that, its gonna make than faction way more interesting.



Well the Stuart now has potential to be a decent unit since it finally has a nondoc suppression platform so USF wont be swamped by infantry going Capt tier anymore its also cheaper and comes out earlier now. I agree the AA HT Pack Howie might be a bit strong but also the m20 did get buffs and got a pretty big manpower cost buff so it might start coming back.




Also the Grenade upgrade finally got a price decrease. :romeoHype:
17 Nov 2018, 12:53 PM
#69
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Well the Stuart now has potential to be a decent unit since it finally has a nondoc suppression platform so USF wont be swamped by infantry going Capt tier anymore its also cheaper and comes out earlier now. I agree the AA HT Pack Howie might be a bit strong but also the m20 did get buffs and got a pretty big manpower cost buff so it might start coming back.


It's a nice dynamic.

Light infantry AI (50 cal and Lieutenant) upgrades to medium AT (minelayer M20 and Stuart)

Light infantry AT (Captain and M1 AT Gun) upgrades to medium AI (Pack Howie and AAHT).

There's merits to both.

It's also worth remembering that not going Pack Howie doesn't lock you out of indirect. It's just better indirect.
17 Nov 2018, 13:23 PM
#70
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Nov 2018, 12:24 PMKatitof


Mortar range: 80
Pack howi auto attack range: 80(or is it still 60?)

Barrage range: 160

So auto attack part is irrelevant and hindering to the unit already.

Rework like that would give USF very exposed due to being inf only "katy" type unit.

The pack howie has the same auto range, one more effective model, much longer barrage range, better aoe, and better vet. Yes, its a better mortar that cannot retreat, and everyone who has used both would take the pack howie over the mortar.
17 Nov 2018, 13:31 PM
#71
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2



That's definitely true, but wouldn't rangers be more ideal? They come in a better doctrine and are just as good as para except for more open maps where the 30 cal paras do better. I'll probably still use Airborne after but having two less relevant abilities hurts the doctrine.

Any change that helps usf teching will make airborne worse relative to heavy cavalry. Heavy cav is great for when you want to side tech (we made side teching better, so heavy cav benefits). Airborne is great when you dont want to side tech (as you said, we made side teching better, which makes airborne worse). Essentially, airbornes job is to make up for bad faction design, so, unfortunately, when usf no longer suffers from this (or suffers from it less), airborne does lose its place.

Sorry if it seemed like I was discounting the idea - yes, ideally relic would descend from the sky and tell us there would be a rework to airborne. Given the likelihood of that though, id settle for paras at least being naturally a little more viable in exchange, seems like the best that can be done.

(Btw paras > rangers)
17 Nov 2018, 13:34 PM
#72
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5441 | Subs: 36

What nobody said yet is:
Mortar : 6 popcap
pakhowie 9 popcap

And that as when 3 models are death from pakhowie, the other 3 are death as well and it is decrewed.
17 Nov 2018, 15:47 PM
#73
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1096

While not part of the overall tech problem I also wanted to take the time to mention of the issue of the USF healing.

Currently the Ambulance is mostly used around the base, and I have seen in a lot of games and read a lot of cases where the enemy swoops in with a fast light vehicle and just kills the Ambulance in a few shots and then retreats, effectively denying the USF player healing.

What I suggest is a 3rd upgrade, medics, be added to the USF HQ to allow for an alternative base only healing option.

Now a lot of people will jump on it saying that it's making it similar to the Soviets but I see no other option, nobody else's healing is so fragile and limited as with the USF's and everybody has an alternative, maybe besides the Soviets, at least non-doctrinally.

Edit:

While yes you could just decrew your medics it's still a problem to constantly micro them to heal.


Tbh I think just a copy paste of the USSR/OKW manpower for medics upgrade on the base ability would be the simplest option. Also save on the popcap for an ambulance that often just sits at the base.
17 Nov 2018, 16:03 PM
#74
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1

This looks good.
Now if only they could give Captain all Riflemen models would be nice too, but for flavour and differences in skills, this is fine.
Now you can get support weapons for less fuel when losing and get light vehicles while winning, flexibility fits the USF theme really well! I'm excited to see this go live.
17 Nov 2018, 16:20 PM
#75
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2

This looks good.
I'm excited to see this go live.

Then the numbers must be WAY too good #USFOP :hansUSA:
17 Nov 2018, 16:29 PM
#76
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1

[code][/code]

Then the numbers must be WAY too good #USFOP :hansUSA:


Certainly!
Captain Tier looks like the all around double upgrade Tier, with each unit filling it's role nicely, good stuff.
LT feels nerfed but I'd have to see how it works, Bazookas and the Stuart might be surprisingly good, but the M20 looks like it will be once again the most solid choice for aggressive play.

You are right this makes Airborne much less atractive, but buffs RS tremendously, given now you can get their bundle and Pathies without drowning in infantry, thanks to the early LT.
17 Nov 2018, 16:36 PM
#77
avatar of BeastHunter

Posts: 186

What nobody said yet is:
Mortar : 6 popcap
pakhowie 9 popcap

And that as when 3 models are death from pakhowie, the other 3 are death as well and it is decrewed.


The minimum limit for the pack howitzer should be 3 operating man so its just 2 models that effectively die or run away after 4 ar killed compared to 1 models that die or run away after 3 get killed.

Popcap, the availability for fast barrages and quick repositioning and last the vet0 smoke screen vs. vet1 wp rounds are strong arguments for the mobile mortar that only lacks the devastating power to slaughter (even from far ranges) axis teamweapons and grouped units near forward retreatpoints or chokepoints.


Another idea about the mod:
could it be possible to turn the tech costs and the Lieutenant/Captain unlocks around? - as an exampe allow the requisition of teh .50 cal and the M1 AT-Gun after paying 50 mp and 20 fuel (without unlocking the Officers yet) and to unlock the Officers for 150 mp and 30 fuel after the basic tiers 1/2 for hmg or atgun got purchased else USF would get a pretty cheap and overwhelming blob pretty fast and could control the bleed of the rather expensive squads by mediocre teamweapon micro.

The suggestion is based on 2 different things which is first the way in which USF blobs can operate if they grow fast in early stages of the game (if you do play without or with late light vehicles USF will usually have the unit advantage with 3 rifles into lt + cap or RE RE rifle rifle LT + Cap)
and on the other hand own experiences from times where I backteched and started bleeding just for having an extra low vetted rifle-esque unit (in the mid or lategame 20-30 min) on the field.
17 Nov 2018, 18:43 PM
#78
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8


The pack howie has the same auto range, one more effective model, much longer barrage range, better aoe, and better vet. Yes, its a better mortar that cannot retreat, and everyone who has used both would take the pack howie over the mortar.

Inability to retreat completely invalidate that extra model.

Yes, raw stats in the void are better then mortars, but I'd still have it have actual distinct role instead of "better mortar" with broken legs and worst death loop in game due to 3 operating men.
17 Nov 2018, 19:30 PM
#79
avatar of LimaOscarMike

Posts: 440

after a few test i can say the revamp did fix the lack of teamweapon and get rid of the penalty for each tier. if i remember correctly i able to rush .50 cal at very 2 or 3 min in and AT around 4-5 minute in fast enough to help against light vehicle.

this might also provide significant dept into this faction for a lot more creative play with doctrine units like pathfinder/paratrooper or maybe assault engineer since you dont necessary have to get 3-4 riflemen anymore

Although, i still think there a lot to be test on light vehicle timing especially stuart which now not only they can provide threat to early ostheer LV but also had .50cal in the same tier
17 Nov 2018, 20:21 PM
#80
avatar of Luciano

Posts: 712

Yo guys, I have a dope idea, lot of people say that ambulance cost is pretty expensive and you lose it pretty easily to base dives. Okay, the idea is the next one:

Give medics 3 levels of veterancy:

1- level increases squad size to 4 medics (?
2- Faster rate of healing (?
3- UNLOCKS THE SAME ABILITY THAT THE AMBULANCE HAS TO HEAL IN AREA (could be at vet 2 also)

EZ
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