Weapon upgrades for standard infatry squads

Hey guys

I am gonna lay down my point, to begin with, and elaborate on my reasoning for it afterward. Every standard infantry squad in the game has a non-doctrinal weapon upgrade, expect Sovjets conscripts! My point being that Conscripts don't necessarily scale as well in the game as other infantry units due to this lack of DPS from no upgradeable weapon.

This is a point I have been wondering about for quite a time now, so as we know all 5 factions currently have fairly similar standard infantry squads with some differences in their overall damage output at different ranges. e.g US Riflemen, with BARS or not is an Infantry squad that is effective at medium to short range whereas Grenadiers from Wehrmacht is a squad that is better suited for long-range engagements even more so with the LMG42 upgrade.

I know that each squad is advantages if used in the right way, but I still think that conscripts have a harder time to keep up with enemy squads DPS no matter what range they are fighting at. They lose to grenadiers at long range due to LMG42 and rifle-nades, they lose close range to Volksgrenadiers due to STGs.


It is not all the time you are going to be playing with a commander with PPSH upgrades and therefore you will then lose a lot of fights later in the game to having inferior infantry.

My idea of a way to fix this problem is to give Sovjets a non-doctrinal weapon upgrade for conscripts consisting of giving 3-4 models SVT rifles (the rifles used by Penal squads) to give them an edge in medium range fights. This will not solve all the problems but it will give the conscripts a fighting edge in many scenarios where would normally not have it.

This is just something I have been thinking about, would love to hear responses and criticism to my idea.

There have been many ideas revolving around conscripts and giving them weapon upgrades. Some suggest SVTs, some suggest a single DP28. Although the idea is more or less solid, tell me why would you ever go penals in T1 if cons had a weapon upgrade? Cons have the better snare IMO because of the superior range and mobility of oorah, can access molotovs, and then potentially the weapon upgrade.

Then there's the matter of their veterancy. The veterancy bonuses of conscripts are absolutely rediculous to compensate for the poor model and mosin stats. However when you take those mosins out and put something else those same crazy stats apply to the new weapon. I'm sure you remember the old conscripts and the old LMG34 combo... This can all be avoided of course, but it is more work you're asking for.

Now the PPSHs currently combined with conscripts are pretty strong, but mitigated by the poor DPS curve. It's the vet 3 RA bonus combined with the 3 ppshs that get tossed over when models die means their DPS doesn't really drop till they start going down to 2 models, similar to how weapon upgrades of other squads work, LMGs perticularly.

I'm not the greatest soviet player in the world, but from what I understand and what I've been told by top players is you go T1 and penals vs OKW normally, and you go cons into T2 against ostheer and pick a PPSHs commander. You don't go cons vs OKW because volks out perform them at every stage of the game, and penals work fairly well vs them. The added bonus of clown car flamer cheese, and potentially sniper which is difficult to handle vs a non sniper faction makes T1 actually good vs a certain faction.

On the other side of the coin you have cons who trade evenly with grens at minute 0 but tend to fall off when the LMG42s come online. However con ppshs allow you to charge and win even without oorah vs LMG42 grens which makes it very ideal vs ostheer in the lategame, so long as you arn't running into HMG42s.

I have a lot of issues with the soviet faction design and this is digging a bit into where there could arise potentially powerful meta changes. From 6 men, nondoctrinal sprint, and many other things cons are the strongest utiilty infantry in the game aside from maybe the jaegar command squad which is blatantly OP.

The absolute biggest concern here for me though is why would I go T1 when cons have a lategame upgrade, oorah, molotovs, snares, merge, 6 men, and model killing flares. But that is the problem with having multiple backbone infantry who all function as long range units.

Maybe somehow you balance the con SVTs to outperform the LMG42 at midrange but lose at long, that would completely nullify penals against ostheer. If they still perform beneath LMG42 grens then why even change it from now?

I think cons need rework as well as a large portion of the faction, but if we just hand them a no-brainer upgrade they'll be very difficult to handle IMO. I'm also concerned about the balance teams ability to apply changes like this. From my perspective, they seem to struggle to either apply the full concept of their ideas because they're inhibited by scope, or other balance members etc, or are not looking to apply universal balance. Either way it always falls short.

Funny, werent the PPSH considered OP and got nerfed last patch

Funny, werent the PPSH considered OP and got nerfed last patch

Nope, cost got increased so they no longer get out of their value.

There have been many ideas revolving around conscripts and giving them weapon upgrades. Some suggest SVTs, some suggest a single DP28. Although the idea is more or less solid, tell me why would you ever go penals in T1 if cons had a weapon upgrade? Cons have the better snare IMO because of the superior range and mobility of oorah, can access molotovs, and then potentially the weapon upgrade.

Then there's the matter of their veterancy. The veterancy bonuses of conscripts are absolutely rediculous to compensate for the poor model and mosin stats. However when you take those mosins out and put something else those same crazy stats apply to the new weapon. I'm sure you remember the old conscripts and the old LMG34 combo... This can all be avoided of course, but it is more work you're asking for.

Now the PPSHs currently combined with conscripts are pretty strong, but mitigated by the poor DPS curve. It's the vet 3 RA bonus combined with the 3 ppshs that get tossed over when models die means their DPS doesn't really drop till they start going down to 2 models, similar to how weapon upgrades of other squads work, LMGs perticularly.

I'm not the greatest soviet player in the world, but from what I understand and what I've been told by top players is you go T1 and penals vs OKW normally, and you go cons into T2 against ostheer and pick a PPSHs commander. You don't go cons vs OKW because volks out perform them at every stage of the game, and penals work fairly well vs them. The added bonus of clown car flamer cheese, and potentially sniper which is difficult to handle vs a non sniper faction makes T1 actually good vs a certain faction.

On the other side of the coin you have cons who trade evenly with grens at minute 0 but tend to fall off when the LMG42s come online. However con ppshs allow you to charge and win even without oorah vs LMG42 grens which makes it very ideal vs ostheer in the lategame, so long as you arn't running into HMG42s.

I have a lot of issues with the soviet faction design and this is digging a bit into where there could arise potentially powerful meta changes. From 6 men, nondoctrinal sprint, and many other things cons are the strongest utiilty infantry in the game aside from maybe the jaegar command squad which is blatantly OP.

The absolute biggest concern here for me though is why would I go T1 when cons have a lategame upgrade, oorah, molotovs, snares, merge, 6 men, and model killing flares. But that is the problem with having multiple backbone infantry who all function as long range units.

Maybe somehow you balance the con SVTs to outperform the LMG42 at midrange but lose at long, that would completely nullify penals against ostheer. If they still perform beneath LMG42 grens then why even change it from now?

I think cons need rework as well as a large portion of the faction, but if we just hand them a no-brainer upgrade they'll be very difficult to handle IMO. I'm also concerned about the balance teams ability to apply changes like this. From my perspective, they seem to struggle to either apply the full concept of their ideas because they're inhibited by scope, or other balance members etc, or are not looking to apply universal balance. Either way it always falls short.

Hey, thanks for taking the time with such a thorough reply. I can see the issue here and there are of course a lot of factors that will be mismatched given the change I am suggesting. Tbh I don't really know how you could make Penals viable if you gave cons a weapon upgrade because then you would have to completely change the design of them to make them different and in any way effective. I agree with your statement on cons having some of the best utility in the game.

Like you say the scope of balancing is very limited and to come close to any more balance that we have right now will be really hard without a complete overhaul of the entire design of the different factions.

My problem is still though you in a fight vs. a gren with a con and you will just outright lose it with no ability to outplay at long range. A little bit of a lackluster answer here since I don't really know how you could change them without making penals obsolete.

Last thing in terms of the meta on certain maps you still go tier 1 sniper and penals vs. Wehr but you are right in tier 1 is blatantly better than cons vs. OKW because as you say the volks just outperform the cons in every way.

Hey, thanks for taking the time with such a thorough reply. I can see the issue here and there are of course a lot of factors that will be mismatched given the change I am suggesting. Tbh I don't really know how you could make Penals viable if you gave cons a weapon upgrade because then you would have to completely change the design of them to make them different and in any way effective. I agree with your statement on cons having some of the best utility in the game.

Like you say the scope of balancing is very limited and to come close to any more balance that we have right now will be really hard without a complete overhaul of the entire design of the different factions.

My problem is still though you in a fight vs. a gren with a con and you will just outright lose it with no ability to outplay at long range. A little bit of a lackluster answer here since I don't really know how you could change them without making penals obsolete.

Last thing in terms of the meta on certain maps you still go tier 1 sniper and penals vs. Wehr but you are right in tier 1 is blatantly better than cons vs. OKW because as you say the volks just outperform the cons in every way.

No problem, always willing to help those who ask. To be fair, I have no idea how to make penals viable while giving cons the boost they need, hence why 2 mainlines don't work. Although if I was forced to have 2 mainlines, what it is now is very close to optimal IMO. Against 1 faction you go T1, and another you go T0 and into T2 later. I agree you can go penals and snipers against ostheer on certain maps probably. Crossing in the woods comes to mind as a map known for heavy sniper play, although I wouldn't ever want to play against ostheer on that map as any faction.

It may have been a lackluster answer from your perspective, but that is why you made this thread, to invoke the minds of others with the possiblity that they come up with an answer you potentially missed or never thought of. It cannot be stressed how important that idea is.

Long story short: I agree with you entirely, but there's almost nothing you can do unless someone decides to rework/scrap penals or the faction.

Idk I'd like cons to be viable without a weapon upgrade. They are supposed to be the backbone of the Soviet force but every strat is designed around avoiding them like the plague because they are weak to start and don't get any stronger. Weapon upgrade is the easy way but doesn't suit the unit imo.
Id like to see some small bonuses to cons earned as a passive when teching up. They wouldn't match the power levels of the main lines of the other factions but they are not meant to! Soviet are chock full of options that cons COULD help support. Oorah COULD provide a weak AOE buff (this new inspire ability on the kv-2 and kv8 for example) would work well in conjunction with maxims for example, whom themselves are dog shit outside a spam, unable to support themselves let alone weak conscripts. or earn small amounts of shared vet so just being around has benifit. They don't need to be a formidable fighting force but they do need to bring SOMETHING to the fight. You already have 3 combat units fighting for relevance, don't make cons another unit that only lives on the buffs/nerfs of the other 3

Nope, cost got increased so they no longer get out of their value.

They removed one PPSH from cons.

You dont really need to give Cons 3-4 SVT to make them viable, even 2 SVT would already be a huge help at midrange fights.
PPSh upgrade isnt really bad by itself, its just once Cons close up with sprint they end up shredded by infiltration grenades or roasted by flamenades faster than they can kill Volks

They removed one PPSH from cons.

Didn't go live. They hiked the price to 60 muni instead.

IMO conscripts (without the doctrinal ppsh upgrade ofc) are not really supposed to trade by themselves with other infantry, which is okay because they’re significantly cheaper to reinforce, 6 men, and have a lot of utility abilities. I think there’s a reason why they’re the only mainline infantry that gets nondoctrinal sprint for example. They’re supposed to kinda be passable infantry that can be a meatshield for support weapons or elites IMO and they’re fairly good at it. They also get pretty hard to hit with small arms at vet3 for their cost and size IIRC.

I wish Penals had Mosins instead of SVT and the old flamethrower + PPsH back (and were cheaper a, and that Conscripts had an 2xSVT upgrade. I also wish Guards came with 2xSVTs and could upgrade either to DP or PTRS.

Currently Soviet infantry are a big design mess because of lack of non-doc elite infantry while having 2 non-engineer infantry units. Brits and USF have better infantry (Tommy cover bonus, 5-man, double-equip, Riflemen Garands etc) because there isn't a second infantry unit that could be considered elite. Soviet Penal battalions is seemingly supposed to be analogous to OKH Panzergrenadiers, except Penals historically were NOT elite infantry.

They removed one PPSH from cons.

Still 3 if you ask me.
They removed it for testing, was proven to underperform, the cost was increased from 40 to 70 muni instead.

Still 3 if you ask me.
They removed it for testing, was proven to underperform, the cost was increased from 40 to 70 muni instead.

45 -> 60

IMO conscripts (without the doctrinal ppsh upgrade ofc) are not really supposed to trade by themselves with other infantry, which is okay because they’re significantly cheaper to reinforce, 6 men, and have a lot of utility abilities. I think there’s a reason why they’re the only mainline infantry that gets nondoctrinal sprint for example. They’re supposed to kinda be passable infantry that can be a meatshield for support weapons or elites IMO and they’re fairly good at it. They also get pretty hard to hit with small arms at vet3 for their cost and size IIRC.

+1

I think we are at a point on which SU as a whole is practically fine. You don't spam Cons (unless you want PPSH mostly) as you would with Volks/Grens/Rifles/IS because you can actually supplement your army with other elites or maxims.

Note: spamming cons on 1v1 is viable because you have to actually hold the map as a whole. Team games eliminate this factor and is a "more blob vs blob" situation which might make Cons less desireable

45 -> 60

I was close enough, ty for correcting.
The point was, cost was increased, not guns removed.

Maybe give them more non-doctrinal utility rather than a straight dps upgrade. Like a repair upgrade (and replace the conscript repair in the commander with something else) or a recon flare ability etc.

So make them a jack of all trades master of none unit.

Maybe give them more non-doctrinal utility rather than a straight dps upgrade. Like a repair upgrade (and replace the conscript repair in the commander with something else) or a recon flare ability etc.

So make them a jack of all trades master of none unit.

The various PMD mines and conscript repair doctrinal stuff could easily be merged together. Conscripts would be mini-engineers that wouldn't be able to do what Combat Engineers can do: get flamethrowers or minesweepers.

It still keeps it doctrinal, but if a majority of commanders have a meaningful/useful conscript passive/upgrade option then you'd achieve a rather similar result.

The various PMD mines and conscript repair doctrinal stuff could easily be merged together. Conscripts would be mini-engineers that wouldn't be able to do what Combat Engineers can do: get flamethrowers or minesweepers.

It still keeps it doctrinal, but if a majority of commanders have a meaningful/useful conscript passive/upgrade option then you'd achieve a rather similar result.

Exactly, I don't think conscripts will ever be an amazing fighting force by themselves. However, they could synergise with other units in a way that other factions mainline infantry can't.

if nothing else they could be a unit to dump all the lacklustre doctinal junk on to make way for better abilities in some commanders.

Conscripts are actually very good, molotovs deny weapon teams, buildings and force LMG grens to move. AT nades are on them, Oorah, flag mines ,cheap, and they can merge.

I don't think they need a weapon upgrade, but maybe they could have a slight cost reduction to manpower reinforcement at vet3? The Royal Engineers used to have that, and while they can be far more lethal than cons.. Cons should remain the utility bucket infantry. They aren't crazy, but they're utility buckets that can perform a lot of roles.

Perhaps the old Partisan upgrade could be an option though, back in the day Partisans could spend 40-60 munitions to increase the squads durability. This would be an interesting way to dump munitions as well as just make sure they survive longer. Often its not the cons that do the lifting, it's the bigger soviet armory, IS-2, ISU-152, Katy, even T-34-76 spam is reliable at mulching infantry.

As a side thought, maybe the durability upgrade could somehow target explosives or grenades. As cons often get wiped by rifle grenades, a source of frustrations for most players. They don't win gun fights, but it will stop the Long ranged fights devolving into whether or not you've been moving around enough to dodge the rifle grenade... something Wehr doesn't have to worry about until you get real close? Or perhaps make the molotov just a throw? I don't get it why a molotov takes like 2 seconds to toss, its just a goddamn bottle! Grenades toss instantly w/ a fuse, and riflenades go off without a fuse. Molotovs are just as obvious as a riflenade, a con squad runs up point blank, they should be able to toss the molotov instantly like any other nade. It's not like it kills you instantly, its like the Volks nade but less lethal.