Stormtrooper changes

Decided to just make a general post that contains my responses to points people have raised (and because I don't quite know how to multiquote).

Pgrens actually don't have smoke grenades. That change was tested on one of the balance previews but didn't make it through to live.

Honestly, 1x stg and 3x kars would lead to a pretty weak unit; offensively weaker than vanilla grens probably. That's just not an option considering how much more they cost. Beyond that, "flavor" infantry (the kind that you only toss one of into your build) doesn't really work too well with a generalist profile unless they're really strong generalists - like falls. Even then, falls only work because they're so strong that they essentially function as OKW's mid game long range infantry.

On a lot of Vipper's points, the answer is essentially #scope. That word isn't really tossed around in our discussions, obviously, but the restriction is still essentially there. We're allowed to touch 2 commanders from each faction and basically nothing else. Obviously Relic has made exceptions to that rule (mobi def, brit snares), but those things aren't really open discussions and stuff we can negotiate on, it's more that Relic decides when to put those changes on the board.

Storms already have first aid kits at vet 1.

For all the people remarking on 4 man close range squads not working, I point to commandos. Commandos were previously 4 men, and given that storms have MUCH better vet than commandos, vet 3 storms essentially catch up to current vet 3 commandos in durability.

4x AT rifles would probably function similarly. I guess it would be extremely reliable light AT as opposed to schrecks which can miss, but I think it would be a nerf to the squad in both AI and AT (depending on numbers of course). Personally, I dont think storms should have even had the panzerschreck upgrade to begin with, but thats besides the point.

Edit (I usually edit without saying anything unless my post has already been seen): the doctrine we're reworking doesnt have an officer callin (unless I missed something).

Second edit: aaaaaand i'm wrong about their not being an officer

For all the people remarking on 4 man close range squads not working, I point to commandos. Commandos were previously 4 men, and given that storms have MUCH better vet than commandos, vet 3 storms essentially catch up to current vet 3 commandos in durability.

Partisans used to be totally OP at 4 men

As for multiquote, there is a button under the post that says "multi quote". You click it for every post you want to quote and then click a "new reply" button on the bottom of the page.

4 Kars vs 4 Stgs are pretty much the same DPS wise at long range, Stgs being a touch weaker, but at those ranges DPS is so low they are plinking at targets anyway. Hence PzGrens and Grens (w/o upgrade) are about equal at long range, but PzGrens are uneconomical for the purpose.

Stgs OTOH have increasing DPS as range drops hence they are much better answer vs. threats like PPsh Cons, Shocks etc.

Commandoes Stens are IIRC totally OP at close range, MP 40s are not. They are meh at best, and solid vs. engineer units. IF you can get close. Not so much a problem with 200 MP units, more of a problem with 340 MP units.

Since they're based off of Brandenburgers (which made extensive use of captured weaponry), why not allow them to upgrade to captured weaponry like a 1x DP-28 or 2x PPsH? I also echo the self-healing medpacks idea.

Decided to just make a general post that contains my responses to points people have raised (and because I don't quite know how to multiquote).

Pgrens actually don't have smoke grenades. That change was tested on one of the balance previews but didn't make it through to live.

Honestly, 1x stg and 3x kars would lead to a pretty weak unit; offensively weaker than vanilla grens probably. That's just not an option considering how much more they cost. Beyond that, "flavor" infantry (the kind that you only toss one of into your build) doesn't really work too well with a generalist profile unless they're really strong generalists - like falls. Even then, falls only work because they're so strong that they essentially function as OKW's mid game long range infantry.

On a lot of Vipper's points, the answer is essentially #scope. That word isn't really tossed around in our discussions, obviously, but the restriction is still essentially there. We're allowed to touch 2 commanders from each faction and basically nothing else. Obviously Relic has made exceptions to that rule (mobi def, brit snares), but those things aren't really open discussions and stuff we can negotiate on, it's more that Relic decides when to put those changes on the board.

Storms already have first aid kits at vet 1.

For all the people remarking on 4 man close range squads not working, I point to commandos. Commandos were previously 4 men, and given that storms have MUCH better vet than commandos, vet 3 storms essentially catch up to current vet 3 commandos in durability.

4x AT rifles would probably function similarly. I guess it would be extremely reliable light AT as opposed to schrecks which can miss, but I think it would be a nerf to the squad in both AI and AT (depending on numbers of course). Personally, I dont think storms should have even had the panzerschreck upgrade to begin with, but thats besides the point.

Edit (I usually edit without saying anything unless my post has already been seen): the doctrine we're reworking doesnt have an officer callin (unless I missed something).

how about when u upgarde thge stg's, one or two of them in the IR STG variant.

Ill rather leave them as it is, then go with the proposed mp44 changes, which imo are horrific

For all the people remarking on 4 man close range squads not working, I point to commandos. Commandos were previously 4 men, and given that storms have MUCH better vet than commandos, vet 3 storms essentially catch up to current vet 3 commandos in durability.

Only Infiltration Commandos were 4 men. Commando Doc and Vanguard Doc Commandos have always been five.

I want to stress my point again. Removing the stg upgrades and forcing them to use mp40s as their automatic weapons doesn't buff this unit at all, infact it is a nerf. Why would I get a storm when I can get a pgren with ambush doc for basically a forgettable 20 munis more? How effective will tactical assault be if the mp40s have the range and dps profile of roughly the old shock ppsh? Realize that there isn't a 4man cqc squad. Yes, commandos exist but the fact is that the rest of the UKF army is FAR easier to micro than Ost due to everything being a lot sturdier than all the glass cannons of Ost. And the idea that Jae for Jett was proposing to nerf the raw firepower of storms in favor of more "utility" is a god awful idea. Ostheer is the only faction with no truly elite infantry and now you want to nerf the unit that is closest to resembling elite infantry for Ostheer? What Ostheer needs is a truly elite infantry and removing stgs and replacing them with free mp40s is a step in the wrong direction. mp40s decreases the survivability of the squad massively as it forces you to get aggressive. At least agrens have sprint. Stgs allow good dps at midrange. I repeat:

Ostheer does NOT need another glass cannon unit. Thanks, but no thanks.

I think in addition to slightly cheaper stgs, stg storm should either get sprint or smoke in addition to camo and tactical assault and I think like the Jaeger command squad, it should get a faust if upgraded with g43 or schreck.

Decided to just make a general post that contains my responses to points people have raised (and because I don't quite know how to multiquote).

How much scope does the patch team have to mess with Stormtroopers? Are there fixed design points the team can't change, or are they free to change the unit entirely?

4 Kars vs 4 Stgs are pretty much the same DPS wise at long range, Stgs being a touch weaker, but at those ranges DPS is so low they are plinking at targets anyway. Hence PzGrens and Grens (w/o upgrade) are about equal at long range, but PzGrens are uneconomical for the purpose.

Stgs OTOH have increasing DPS as range drops hence they are much better answer vs. threats like PPsh Cons, Shocks etc.

Commandoes Stens are IIRC totally OP at close range, MP 40s are not. They are meh at best, and solid vs. engineer units. IF you can get close. Not so much a problem with 200 MP units, more of a problem with 340 MP units.

At that point why even compare unupgraded grens. If the argument is that the squad would be preferable to a vanilla gren squad, then I think the point is lost already. 1x stg and 3x kars would make the unit awkward to use. You either sit at max range (stgs have half the dps of kars at max range, though they very quickly catch up to kars), at which point lmg grens or even vanilla grens would be better. Or you walk up to a unit and lose because you're stuck with 3x kars. Essentially they don't have the DPS to win long range or short range fights.

So I'm assuming you didn't test the mp40s. Can't exactly blame anyone since absolutely no information was even really given regarding the mp40s, but after the most recent round of buffs, they have a higher dps than stens, and they were already roughly equivalent to shocks ppshs, so yeah. Any argument that directly or indirectly uses the idea that their mp40s suck in comparison to other smgs (except thompsons) should probably be rethought.

Since they're based off of Brandenburgers (which made extensive use of captured weaponry), why not allow them to upgrade to captured weaponry like a 1x DP-28 or 2x PPsH? I also echo the self-healing medpacks idea.

A fun idea, but that doesn't do anything to give them a role or reason to be built (though I guess being cool is a pretty big reason...). Also, I said it in a previous post, but they already get first aid kits on vet 1 just like nearly every other ostheer unit.

Or we could just give Stormtroopers x4 StGs by default, if it's such an issue.

Let panzergrenadiers purchase the stgs.

A fun idea, but that doesn't do anything to give them a role or reason to be built (though I guess being cool is a pretty big reason...). Also, I said it in a previous post, but they already get first aid kits on vet 1 just like nearly every other ostheer unit.

Well, the medkit I was thinking was more along the lines of Volks self-heal out of combat. The Vet 1 ability could be something more unique, like smoke grenades or something. That would make them more utility-oriented. Demos, smoke, self-heal, stealth, and versatile upgrades on a ninja infantry unit sounds pretty good to me. The only thing is DP-28 won't offer as much raw DPS as an LMG42, and 2x PPsH is more situational than 4x StG.

Perhaps the DP/PPsH upgrades could offer some abilities as well, such as button vehicle/tactical assault (and free up tactical assault with something else utility-wise). That way, the lower DPS weapons/more situational weapons can for a short amount of time be just as useful in direct engagements.

Id like three upgrade options
STGs and taacasault 80 muni
MP40s and commandos like stealth 80 muni
Szchreks and commandos like stealth 100 muni

+1.

I think 2 schrecks and commando stealth would be too much though. I think 1 with camouflage damage bonuses like the paratrooper support squads have for like 60 muni would be better, simply because they'd do way too much damage out of ambushes with commando camo to be effectively countered (mainly the problem would be if they have like 2 squads we could have the old pre-speed nerf double raketen type situation were they just sneak around and find tanks and kill them in 2 volleys).

+1.

I think 2 schrecks and commando stealth would be too much though. I think 1 with camouflage damage bonuses like the paratrooper support squads have for like 60 muni would be better, simply because they'd do way too much damage out of ambushes with commando camo to be effectively countered (mainly the problem would be if they have like 2 squads we could have the old pre-speed nerf double raketen type situation were they just sneak around and find tanks and kill them in 2 volleys).

I also agree with everything here. It's best to keep the changes simple by including the stg upgrade and 2 schrecks is a bit much on stealth though camo pgrens do exist.

The ability to shoot on long range is insignificant next to the power of camouflage

Don't try to frighten us with your infiltrator's ways, Lord Adamírcz. Your sad devotion-yaddayaddayadda...I had to, ok?

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh that's all I got aside from just agreeing with a unique utility angle being the way to go with Storms.

Only Infiltration Commandos were 4 men. Commando Doc and Vanguard Doc Commandos have always been five.

Yeah and I personally found them to be a lot weaker than regular commandos but they also have much larger (worse) RAs than stormtroopers if stormtroopers actually have 0.75 RA. This gap is probably made even wider with veterancy if they get any bonuses to RA (I don't recall their veterancy at all) since commandos only get a small RA bonus from vet.

Commandoes Stens are IIRC totally OP at close range, MP 40s are not. They are meh at best, and solid vs. engineer units. IF you can get close. Not so much a problem with 200 MP units, more of a problem with 340 MP units.

Apparently they buffed the mp40s on stormtroopers to about shock trooper ppsh levels. I played a game with them and called them in from a building, then hopped into the building, and they then beat 2 full riflemen squads from about 10 meters with no nades thrown and no movement on either side. Point is, they're a lot better than pio or assgren mp40s.

Apparently they buffed the mp40s on stormtroopers to about shock trooper ppsh levels. I played a game with them and called them in from a building, then hopped into the building, and they then beat 2 full riflemen squads from about 10 meters with no nades thrown and no movement on either side. Point is, they're a lot better than pio or assgren mp40s.

They already were shock ppsh level, now they're slightly better than commando stens.

They already were shock ppsh level, now they're slightly better than commando stens.

So when did this buff happen? I did see something regarding their reload being changed, is that what you're referring to?

i dont like the removal of STGs on this unit. i would like to see more mp40s but for an elite unit the STG is clearly the better option, especially a 4 man elite unit. its not like they are a cheap 5 man super utility unit, they need to be able to do what they do well

I will just leave this hear so you can continue the discussion with what their MP40s currently are:

Stormtrooper MP 40: 0/10/15/17/20/25/35

18.69/18.69/7.14/2.449/0.717/0.1