Stormtrooper changes

I hate the fact that people want to remove stgs from storms. Having mp40s with the effective range of old shocks as their CQC weapons is a terrible idea for a 4man squad. Yes they have 0.75 RA but the cqc units in the game have at least 5 or more models and all have either great RA or body armor except agrens which have their lacklustre sprint. My only gripe with the current Stormtroopers is that their stg upgrade is too expensive. An mp40 squad simply makes the squad a lot harder to use and for a faction with plenty of glass cannons, we don't need another fragile cqc squad. It's already the hardest faction to play.

The MP-40 is a bad change but the MP-44 is not needed either. The unit represents Brandenburgers (sort of military intelligence unit) and it see little reason for them to overlap with PGs. They should be able to offer abilities not available for Ostheer stock units.

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Id like three upgrade options
STGs and taacasault 80 muni
MP40s and commandos like stealth 80 muni
Szchreks and commandos like stealth 100 muni

Personally I've always hated the STG upgrade on Storms and never used them because paying munitions to get a Panzergrenadier with Tactical Assault and Camo never seemed efficient to me. That being said I find MP40s goofy considering the overlap with Ass Grens and Arty Officer but love the booby traps and faster decap buffs. I'd sooner like seeing them come with G43s by default and then giving Elite Troops stormtroopers some other "elite" upgrade. Overall its a move in the right direction but I'm very iffy on MP40- though giving them a Commando like ambush bonus would make me a believer.

Id prefer if they started with rifles instead so I can pick g43s every time

Give Stormtroopers the same rifle profile as obers.

...The unit represents Brandenburgers (sort of military intelligence unit)...

I believe they are based on Stoßtrupp.

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Maybe a mix of both?

Again Stormtroopers seem to have little to do with an infantry doctrine and abilities like "valiant assault" "for the further land" "for mother Russia" seem better suited. These abilities could even cost fuel instead of mu so that the commander is not so much munition depended and the player has the choice to improve the performance of his infantry or build vehicles

Suggestion for Stormtroopers:
The MP40 change seem completely unnecessary since it simply promotes the infiltration cheese wipe outs on retreating unit.
Suggestions:
Cost down to 300-320
Unit spawns with 2 g43+2 K98 and can upgrade with 2 more g43 or 1 Panzerschreck
Bunble grenade replaced with DOT grenade either incendiary or Blendkorper

New abilities (not all of them) for the unit:
Unit has wire cutters (fits thematically)
Unit now has demolition charges similar to paratroopers (increases utility)
Casualty Interrogation (ability removed from Jaeger Light Infantry) (fits thematically)
Shue or Rigel mine (increases utility)

Other changes:
Vehicle Detection replace by an ability similar to "Hammer Tracking" (increases utility)
Medkits vet 1 replaced either by a weaker version of "Tactical Assault"or by passive healing that allow unit to operate behind enemy lines.
Camouflage replaced by "radio silence ability" hiding the unit in the mini map

A big reason why we chose stormtroopers instead of a mapwide aura (aside from how boring/uninteractive such abilities are) is because this also allows us to change storms for other doctrines.

If storms spawn with g43s and can upgrade more, then the elite troops g43 upgrade will do nothing for them. Etherealdragon therefore suggested changing the g43 slot in elite troops for something else, but that's something we're not allowed to do since that doctrine wasn't selected. That basically takes away the possibility of stock upgrades that give them g43s.

Demo charges are probably along the vein of booby traps already, and im honestly inclined to say that booby traps are more useful given the detection range on demos now. I'm not quite sure how well incendiaries would fit thematically, but it doesn't sad bad on principle. Casualty interrogation is something, but as you stated, it overlaps with the g43 upgrade and thats not quite something I see a workaround for.

My honest take on the changes you suggested is that they cause conflict with other abilities without giving storms a reason to be built and a meaningful role. Perhaps if you could expand on what that role is and what kind of use case you'd like to hit with these changes it would help.

Changing them to MP 40s was a terrible idea. Instead of overlapping with PzGrens, they now overlap with/basically the same as Assault Grenadiers and to a lesser extent, Pios. And they used to be just terribly expensive, slightly buffed Grenadiers with ambush camouflage built in.

I like the idea that they are added to an underused doctrine, thing is I would like to use them more often, but they are so few doctrines as it is.

Clearly the unit needs to be more unique for that price. They are very expensive for what they do - basically Grenas with slightly lower RA with an +50% price tag.


Going with the results of the poll, lets keep their Kar 98s, but only 3 of them and the 4th guy gets a Stg44. This would give them a character (they are basically politcally correct W-SS infantry which was known to have received earlier/more Stgs) in their intended assault role, it would make sense for infiltration (since Bundled Grenades are both nerfed and on cooldown when spawned). A single Stg would buff them in close range but otherwise would not be very OP or having the DPS potential of Pzgrens.

Keep the Stg upgrade, but since it adds only 3 Stgs, reduce the Muni cost to a more affordable and sensible 75.

The wire cutter ability also makes sense and would fit into the unit's character well.


This would give you a versatile semi elite unit suitable for infiltration, with a medicum of close combat, with a nice historical touch.

I believe they are based on Stoßtrupp.

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Maybe a mix of both?

Nope! This is the insignia for Brandenburgers after they were absorbed into Panzergrenadier divisions:


Also, I believe too many Wehrmact units now use the MP40. Weapon crews, Pioneers, Assault Officer, Assault Grenadier, and now Stormtroopers? I'd petition for Pioneers to be armed with rifles at this point, just so there are less units with MP40s. (It would also be nice seeing Pioneers being clearly more back-line than Sturmpioneers if this were the case!)

Stormtroopers are in a pretty odd position because no matter what weapons profile you give them, they'll always overlap with other units in OH's quite versatile unit roster. Give them Obersoldaten rifles and they'll just be like grenadiers, give them StG44s and they'll just be like Panzergrens, give them MP40s and they'll just be like Assgrens/arty officer, etc.


Therefore it might be worth exploring to give them unique utility rather than combat roles and put much more emphasis on their current role as infiltration troops that can cause havoc behind enemy lines.

Just thinking aloud here but they could have abilities like disabling strategic points, fast decap rate, laying booby traps, steal resources, demolitions/explosives to attack forward retreat points, lay light vehicle mines to delay enemy armor, salvage wrecks/team weapons, advanced sight range when in cover/camoed, etc.

They could have something like a 2 STG44 / 2 G43 and 2 Kar98 weapons profile for decent self-defence but they wouldn't be very adequate in combat. Their strength would lie in causing confusion and disarray. IMO this would make them very unique and probably really fun to use.

Stormtroopers are in a pretty odd position because no matter what weapons profile you give them, they'll always overlap with other units in OH's quite versatile unit roster. Give them Obersoldaten rifles and they'll just be like grenadiers, give them StG44s and they'll just be like Panzergrens, give them MP40s and they'll just be like Assgrens/arty officer, etc.


Therefore it might be worth exploring to give them unique utility rather than combat roles and put much more emphasis on their current role as infiltration troops that can cause havoc behind enemy lines.

Just thinking aloud here but they could have abilities like disabling strategic points, fast decap rate, laying booby traps, steal resources, demolitions/explosives to attack forward retreat points, lay light vehicle mines to delay enemy armor, salvage wrecks/team weapons, advanced sight range when in cover/camoed, etc.

They could have something like a 2 STG44 / 2 G43 and 2 Kar98 weapons profile for decent self-defence but they wouldn't be very adequate in combat. Their strength would lie in causing confusion and disarray. IMO this would make them very unique and probably really fun to use.

I actually pitched something very similar to that (extreme utility/harrassment/infiltration capabilities with little combat power). The conclusion was that people wouldn't be open to that kind of change given storms' previous identity. Of course, if that conclusion was incorrect, then I think it's something we're open to exploring; however, I don't think such a direction would be chanced unless it was something a noticeable portion of the community supports.

Changing them to MP 40s was a terrible idea. Instead of overlapping with PzGrens, they now overlap with/basically the same as Assault Grenadiers and to a lesser extent, Pios. And they used to be just terribly expensive, slightly buffed Grenadiers with ambush camouflage built in.

I like the idea that they are added to an underused doctrine, thing is I would like to use them more often, but they are so few doctrines as it is.

Clearly the unit needs to be more unique for that price. They are very expensive for what they do - basically Grenas with slightly lower RA with an +50% price tag.


Going with the results of the poll, lets keep their Kar 98s, but only 3 of them and the 4th guy gets a Stg44. This would give them a character (they are basically politcally correct W-SS infantry which was known to have received earlier/more Stgs) in their intended assault role, it would make sense for infiltration (since Bundled Grenades are both nerfed and on cooldown when spawned). A single Stg would buff them in close range but otherwise would not be very OP or having the DPS potential of Pzgrens.

Keep the Stg upgrade, but since it adds only 3 Stgs, reduce the Muni cost to a more affordable and sensible 75.

The wire cutter ability also makes sense and would fit into the unit's character well.


This would give you a versatile semi elite unit suitable for infiltration, with a medicum of close combat, with a nice historical touch.

But then they still vastly underperform stock, and become more expensive pgrens. In fact, they would probably be worse than grens since you're mixing a mid range stg with long range rifles. Anyway, my understanding of the changes was that we were attempting to:
1. Make them not useless without an upgrade
2. Reduce overlap with other units (grenadiers and panzergrenadiers)

I don't think your proposal helps with either of these and I don't think it even really changes them. Wirecutters would be cool, but also nearly useless; likely more useless than ostheer first aid kits.

Finally, people keep saying the current iteration of storms overlaps with assault grenadiers, but I fail to understand how that's the case. They don't slot into builds the same way, and you're likely to use them entirely differently. Assault grenadiers are used either as a complete substitute for grenadiers to skip tech or as a one-off in the early game. You build them in the first minute or not at all. Storms are called in when your build and core infantry base is already established. This means that assault grenadiers have to frontline since theyll probably be accounting for a large part of your core fighting force, while storms don't have to shoehorned into situations since you already have grens to do the work. Beyond that, assault grenadiers aren't the ambushers that storms are - live or preview.

But then they still vastly underperform stock, and become more expensive pgrens. In fact, they would probably be worse than grens since you're mixing a mid range stg with long range rifles. Anyway, my understanding of the changes was that we were attempting to:

1. Make them not useless without an upgrade
2. Reduce overlap with other units (grenadiers and panzergrenadiers)

I don't think your proposal helps with either of these and I don't think it even really changes them.

It actually does. Grens are long range specialist, while PzGrens are mostly short range specialist.

My proposed Stormtroopers would be a mix of the two, with more resilence and more versatality. Which is exactly what is useful for a Wehr elite unit, as they have only specialists. Specialist tanks, specialist infantry, specialist support weapons. They do not need another super short range infantry specialist, especially as they do have the same thing already as stock (Pios with Flame upgrades) or as an upgraded Doc option (Assgrens).

They need versatile, an elite generalist infantry, they could serve as a glue holding squishy Wehr infantry units and the frontline together. As such, they can either receive offensive upgrades (3x Stg) or defensive oriented upgrades (1xSchreck). And at this price range, they cannot be sustainable spammed.

As an infiltrator unit, without at least some automatic weapons, they are also utterly useless. That's the main weakness of their original design as 4 Kar98 are meh for unit that pays 40 MP extra to appear behind the enemy and... shot them with the very same weapons Grens do from the front.
Adding a Stg instead of one of the Kar98s would fix that without becoming to powerful to handle.

Wirecutters would be cool, but also nearly useless; likely more useless than ostheer first aid kits.

Smoke grenades might be the other option, fitting for their offensive role, but PzGrens already have that and it would be probably very OP with their assault ability.

Finally, people keep saying the current iteration of storms overlaps with assault grenadiers, but I fail to understand how that's the case. They don't slot into builds the same way, and you're likely to use them entirely differently. Assault grenadiers are used either as a complete substitute for grenadiers to skip tech or as a one-off in the early game. You build them in the first minute or not at all. Storms are called in when your build and core infantry base is already established. This means that assault grenadiers have to frontline since theyll probably be accounting for a large part of your core fighting force, while storms don't have to shoehorned into situations since you already have grens to do the work. Beyond that, assault grenadiers aren't the ambushers that storms are - live or preview.

MP40s with the worst weapon profile make absolutely NO sense on a squashy 4 men squad that would now also had to close in first, then get into less than 10 range to be effective at which point they also loose all their RAs and become essentially Pioneers but 60% more expensive. Why would I EVER want to do that? Pios do the same job just much cheaper.

Ambush, which basically adds accuracy for the first few seconds also does not work at all with a unit that cannot do damage past range 10 (as in MP 40).

Also what about an option to put away the Panzershreck (like Sturmpioneers can put away the minesweeper)? This would make them more versatile than Panzergrenadiers because they could switch between AT and AI.

How about a demolition specialist role? The booby trap was a good start, but add it the ability to lay mines like partisans. Flare mines, shu mines, and reinforce barb wire? (okw wire) Replace the bundle grenade with either a cooked stick grenade or an grenade assault. For weapon upgrades, there is the unused PzB 39s. A x4 undropalbe slot items (equal to guards ptrs) to reduce anti infantry damage while increasing anti vehicle. Another potenal weapon other than the MP40 could be a MP41(r), a PPSH chambered with German 9mm parablum.

First of all congratulation to all involved in the efforts to improve the game. I would also like to thank you for taking the time to read and respond to my rather long posts. I might sound critical by my criticism is aims at the proposed changes and not the persons. I apologize if more criticism is coming but try to keep in mind that it is aimed at the changes and path and not the people.


On the choice of Storm-troopers.
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On Storm-troopers in other commanders
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On abilities
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On Role
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I would also like to point out that unit in scope should have even secondary stats look at(like reinforcement time, XP value) and more importantly their vet abilities and bonuses looked at.

Finally imo Relic should be convinced that before continuing this slow commander fixing process they should do a general sweep of commanders (especially Ostheer/Soviet) and remove OP combination like Elephant/reckon plane/Stuka.

If hypothetical each ability could be measured with a value from 0-10, then commanders should have the same total value of around 50 point instead of the current situation where some are stuck with 30 point and other have 70 point.

I feel like some people seriously underestimate stealth, with the claims of overlaps
The ability to shoot on long range is insignificant next to the power of camouflage

If the MP40s would add proper stealth like on commandos and partysans, it would be great

If a 4 man squad is going to be operating behind enemy lines they need to be able to deal their damage efficiently (as in, from cover, long range, ideally with a grenade option). That squad also needs to at least be able to have some combination of: creating its own cover/shot blocker, cloaking, and sprinting. These could be after some upgrade or with vet.

I figure it might be worth a try giving Storms scavenge and medpacks that they can use on themselves. Either passively or as an upgrade: making them an Ostheer version of JLI. (That hopefully still can choose to get StGs.)

Though I am serious that Stormtroopers should have their rifles adjusted to match Obers. It'd be nice to have a unit that doesn't absolutely need some slot item upgrade. Additionally this allows Storms to enjoy some synergy with a panzerschreck, and also makes the x4 StG option a true tradeoff that doesn't give the squad awkward and inconsistent ranges of effectiveness.