Feedback for Commander Revamppatch

I'd rather have balanced vet bonuses that are reasonably obtained rather than OP bonuses rarely obtained.

It's something OKW used to have, like the old Command Panther aura affecting infantry, that was GG right there.

The sturmtiger being something equivalent to a self propelled B4 arti really wouldn't be too crazy, especially since you can only troll with b4s anyway and usually only by having multiples.

Not really and amazing veterancy bonuses are not that important if the chance to actually get them is 0.1%.

JLIR need a grenade at vet 0 possibly the Blendkörper, veterancy overhaul, faster reinforcement speed (and lower reinforcement cost if I remember correctly.)

Available to be built from T0 unlocked at first truck at 250 and to be spawned at CP 1 with a cost of 260.

Maybe Pop down to 7(?) since pathfinders have 6.

In addition thorough salvage speed needs to go down it currently too risky to attempt it.

You are overlooking one major thing, they are supposed to be OKW sniper squad, not replacement for volks and grens wana-be.

They do not need nade at vet0 at all nor faster reinforcement, given the bleed they can inflict even alone thanks to sniper crit.

Pathfinders are also much less effective with their sniper crit, so both cost and pop for JLI should be kept higher to account for that.

The sturmtiger being something equivalent to a self propelled B4 arti really wouldn't be too crazy, especially since you can only troll with b4s anyway and usually only by having multiples.

Exactly, besides that it would make the Sturmtiger into an even more unique vehicle while fixing it's core issues and providing something which the Axis don't really have in their arsenal apart from mobile rocket artillery.

You are overlooking one major thing, they are supposed to be OKW sniper squad, not replacement for volks and grens wana-be.

I am not overlooking anything, JLIR are the equivalent of Pathfinders. PLS cut down on the personal remarks.

They do not need nade at vet0 at all nor faster reinforcement, given the bleed they can inflict even alone thanks to sniper crit.

Yes they do need grenades else they will simply be overun by any squad since the scoped rifle is not efficient in close range.

Reinforcement speed is irreverent to the bleed a unit can inflict, and in the case of JLIR it is simply a remnant of the their old cost.

Pathfinders are also much less effective with their sniper crit, so both cost and pop for JLI should be kept higher to account for that.

Pathfinder have 2 scopes rifles not 1 and their scoped weapons have excellent synergy with BAR that scatter shots especially vs squads with less entities. They easily get to vet 3.

JLI definitely do not need grenades. They are a scout unit that excel at long range, not to get in close and lob grenades, your general infantry have that job.

Price/performance between pathfinders and JLI like I said is getting out of whack. Pathfinders are 290mp and new JLI are 250mp.

JLI do take longer to vet up through but they are capable of taking vet 3 pathfinders when only vet 2 (without sniper upgrade).

If the argument is they can be equipped with bars, I'll remind you they are ment to Excel at range. If I wanted to equip units with bars, I'll just go riflemen.

Look beside vetterancy requirements being higher, JLI are just becoming blantently superior to pathfinders and I just hate seeing units that are similar become so different in cost/performance.

I came back from the dead just to add:

I really hope we can find some way to get withdraw and refit back into US mechanized. Used to be the best part of that doctrine. Really added a new play-style to USF.

I am not overlooking anything, JLIR are the equivalent of Pathfinders. PLS cut down on the personal remarks.


Yes they do need grenades else they will simply be overun by any squad since the scoped rifle is not efficient in close range.

Reinforcement speed is irreverent to the bleed a unit can inflict, and in the case of JLIR it is simply a remnant of the their old cost.


Pathfinder have 2 scopes rifles not 1 and their scoped weapons have excellent synergy with BAR that scatter shots especially vs squads with less entities. They easily get to vet 3.

Yeah pathfinder combat efficiency is not a problem. IMO JLIs and pathfinders are pretty well balanced as it is in terms of performance. I’d like to see 0cp pathfinders without their scoped rifles until 1cp though. It’s very hard to properly utilize airborne company and even recon support because you end up with way too much infantry, so 0cp paths would help a lot.

JLI definitely do not need grenades. They are a scout unit that excel at long range, not to get in close and lob grenades, your general infantry have that job.

The grenades is there to protect them from being overrun, JLIR already have access to grenades via "infiltration tactics" in scavenger Doctrine and it hardly problematic, adding the Blendkörper will hardly create any issues.

Price/performance between pathfinders and JLI like I said is getting out of whack. Pathfinders are 290mp and new JLI are 250mp.

JLI do take longer to vet up through but they are capable of taking vet 3 pathfinders when only vet 2 (without sniper upgrade).

JLRI cost 250mp+45 MU.

Capable does not not mean probable, you can run some test (10 times) in cheat mode and see how it goes but since these units are not designed to fight each other their performance on vs other is not really that important.

In the end of the day what I have suggested is an veterancy overhaul meaning that the unit should vet at normal pace and if their veterancy bonuses prove to be too high then they should be toned down (or the performance in vet 0 should be toned down), generally speaking unit should balance in all vet levels.

If the argument is they can be equipped with bars, I'll remind you they are ment to Excel at range. If I wanted to equip units with bars, I'll just go riflemen.

Look beside vetterancy requirements being higher, JLI are just becoming blantently superior to pathfinders and I just hate seeing units that are similar become so different in cost/performance.

That is because you incorrectly assume that bar will not benefit Pathfinder in long range, BAR more than double the DPS of the M1a1 carbine so it a great long range weapon for Pathfinders. In addition the BAR spread damage across the enemy entities especially against 4 men squad thus making critical kills from scopes Garand more frequent.

My suggestions where not about increasing their performance but bringing them inline with other units (Veterancy overhaul, reinforcement cost/time, pop )and I actually suggested a price increase when they are being deployed via spawn.

I came back from the dead just to add:

I really hope we can find some way to get withdraw and refit back into US mechanized. Used to be the best part of that doctrine. Really added a new play-style to USF.

My suggestion was to make withdraw allow USF to exchange light vehicles instead of refunding their cost.

That would greatly increase the benefits of investing in light vehicles since one would be able to get the light vehicle one needs according to the stage of game.

The grenades is there to protect them from being overrun

I think they should not get grenades for this exact reason, so they can be countered. Besides, they are meant to be a second-line support squad to mainline infantry anyway so there should be other infantry around to stop charges. And there's already the infiltration nades in Scavange.

Give them grenades and people will start spamming them (again) as mainline infantry.

I think they should not get grenades for this exact reason, so they can be countered. Besides, they are meant to be a second-line support squad to mainline infantry anyway so there should be other infantry around to stop charges. And there's already the infiltration nades in Scavange.

Give them grenades and people will start spamming them (again) as mainline infantry.

Infiltration grenades are doctrinal they are not available to both Doctrines with JLIR.

The DPS of JLIR is rather bad at close range since the scoped g43 has negative DPS curve thus the unit is bellow average bolt action squad at close range.

A DOT grenade will be there for them to defend vs charging troops while having to spend munition in order to buy some time. I really see no problem with it.

Spamming as mainline infantry has to with their timing and not with grenades.

Here's an updated overview of all my feedback on the OKW commanders.
Partly based on the usage in the tourney. Updated for 1.8.

Once again I'd like to thank the team for a great job so far and for the community approach.


Elite Armor
General consensus: good commander overal. Fixes to the abilities have come a long way and the addition of the 221/223 is very interesting. Still I think it needs some more minor adjustments to become a truly viable commander.

[0 CP] 221 / 223

• I think the cost should be slightly adjusted to 200MP/20FU, in comparison to OST's 222 (200MP/30FU). 223 upgrade can be increased to 120MP/10FU to keep total cost for the mobile cache the same.

• Partly based on its limited use during the tourney, I think it currently comes onto the field a bit late for what it can do (as 221). I would propose to test it with the requirement moved down to having an SWS truck built, rather than an HQ set up. This should put its deployment time down by 2-3 minutes and give it a bit of shock value. Makes players choose between teching or fighting power. If this is too early for USF/UKF to deal with it, armor could be lowered and the 223 upgrade could act like armored skirts (historically earlier models of 221 had less armor).

• The ability to engage aircraft would be nice. Could be considered for vet4 to replace the durability bonus that isn't incredibly useful.

[4 CP] Emergency Repairs

• All good now.

[5 CP] Panzer Commander

• Good overhaul, ability is really useful now and definitely worth the trade with pintle mount.
  

• While the current implementation of the PC's Artillery Barrage is very useful, it does devastating damage against tanks because it is so concentrated. See https://www.coh2.org/topic/82569/commander-revamp-patch-bug-list/post/699991. Would propose to spread out shells a bit more.

[7 CP] HEAT Shells

• All good.

[11 CP] Sturmtiger

• Please consider removing light cover collision from the rocket. This unit is already very micro heavy and clumsy to use, and after going through all the trouble of manually reloading and planning the next attack it's very annoying when the rocket detonates prematurely just because there was a small bush or fence in the way. If this isn't possible, decrease the random scatter a bit so avoiding cover with the shot is actually in the player's control.

• I think the limit of 1 shared with King Tiger is something that wasn't needed. These units serve completely different roles and do not supplement each other like the Command Panther would. I would like to see this limit removed.

Overwatch
General consensus: this doctrine has had an identity crisis, I hope the return of Sector Assault fixes things a bit but I remain sceptical. I still think the Jagdtiger would fit really well in this doctrine and would be much better than the LeFH 18.

[0 CP] Early Warning and Forward Receivers

• Good thing to have merged these with Goliath to open up another slot. Doesn't need any changes.

• One suggestion: allow infantry to plant the flag flares (for free?) on friendly flags that are not capped by the Overwatch player. This would encourage more teamwork in team games and make this doctrinal ability more useful there. Having to do it manually with squads would be a significant micro / combat power tax.

[1 CP] Jaeger Light Infantry (JLI)

• Awesome change to 1 CP, they will be much more easy to integrate into build orders.

• Please take a look at their veterancy requirements. They seem incredibly high, it takes ages to get them even past vet 2. Could be lowered by 25-33% I think.

• There is somewhat of an issue with their weapon slots as the Scoped Gewehr 43 doesn't count as one. They can pick up 2 dropped weapons besides the Gew43 and it doesn't switch over to the last two models if they have picked up weaons.

[2 CP] For the Fatherland

• Can't say much about this ability, seems to be fine for what it does.

[8 CP] LeFH 18

• LeFH 18 is an odd adition to the doctrine. It doesn't make it particularily attractive to choose. If one wants LeFH 18, Defensive Doctrine is generally the better choice.

• Its new vet5 ability "aimed shot" is very lackluster. Needs to be replaced by something else. If it's possible I would replace this with an 'Overwatch' ability that automatically targets enemies in an area designated by the player. This would work similar to the overwatch ability of the 25 pounders in vCoH (see picture below). Use airburst shells for dramatic effect.

• Personally, I would like to see this slot replaced by the Jagdtiger. It seemed a very popular idea among the community.

• Giving Overwatch the Jagdtiger would give the doctrine the significant boost it needs with a high power unit at the end. Would synergise well with JLI and Early Warning for sight.

• This would also open up a chance to tweak the Jagdtiger a bit to make it less powerful but more practical to use. Firepower and mobility down to Elefant levels, removing the (quite ridiculous frankly) engine upgrade. Cost down a bit.

[10 CP] Sector Assault

• This ability is still pretty random. I don't really know what can be done about it to make it better.

• I do like how it opens up a forced choice where to spend munitions and it counteracts the Goliaths.

• Some ideas to improve it: add a second strafe plane. Maybe add spotting to the strafe planes. Turn the random bombing into a pattern (like Air Supremacy) although this would make it much less unique.

Details on proposed LeFH 18 vet5 ability:

Well I've just seen NKVD Anti-tank overwatch in action. A snared KT reversing is completely undamaged, for a 200 munitions. I guess I have to take my words on booby trap back, NKVD got even bigger waste of munitions this patch AND lost one of the best infantry area denials in game in process

Here's an updated overview of all my feedback on the OKW commanders.
Partly based on the usage in the tourney. Updated for 1.8.

Once again I'd like to thank the team for a great job so far and for the community approach.

Thx for updating your summary, its very good to see all discussion points bundled in 1 post.
I personally would also like to see some adjustments of Sector Assault, It could be really powerful but right now it takes just to long. I fear that the plane can't even return to 3rd attack because it was already shot down.
So I would support your idea of adding a second plane. I would suggest that in the first run 2 planes arrive, 1 gives AI Strafe, the other gives you the bombing run. In the 2nd run both planes use their bombs. You would have the same amount of attacks but it would not take ages.

Well I've just seen NKVD Anti-tank overwatch in action. A snared KT reversing is completely undamaged, for a 200 munitions. I guess I have to take my words on booby trap back, NKVD got even bigger waste of munitions this patch AND lost one of the best infantry area denials in game in process

Maybe try to give some constructive feedback for once instead of just pointlessly whining about everything. Do you think anyone of the team is going to take your complaints serious if you present them like this?


So the tracking of the ability doesn't work well yet. Moving targets do not get hit, so the ability should be tweaked to deal more damage to moving vehicles before they leave the area. Damage against stationary targets is fine though, could kill a King Tiger two times over.

Maybe try to give some constructive feedback for once instead of just pointlessly whining about everything. Do you think anyone of the team is going to take your complaints serious if you present them like this?


So the tracking of the ability doesn't work well yet. Moving targets do not get hit, so the ability should be tweaked to deal more damage to moving vehicles before they leave the area. Damage against stationary targets is fine though, could kill a King Tiger two times over.

Anti-tank ability to a commander with zero anti-tank themed abilities because commander has too much anti-infantry tools? Booby traps to egineers when axis unit who have them are either frontline troops or infiltration units?
Another funny thing: you STILL cant dodge panzer commander artillery with a snared heavy (and that gets ignored) meanwhile NKVD gets clearly untested and untuned AT Overwatch which cant hit one of the slowest tanks in game which is reversing while snared?
Considering all of this clearly not much thought is given to those changes in first place, calling out mod team of unneeded changes and bizzare nerfs is reasonable feedback

Just remove the crane reload crap, the SturmTiger could carry at least 5 shells in the casamate ammo rack before having to refill.

Then high damage + suppression can make some sense.

Just remove the crane reload crap, the SturmTiger could carry at least 5 shells in the casamate ammo rack before having to refill.

Then high damage + suppression can make some sense.

If you actually had any clue, you would be aware the crane was mandatory to load shell to barrel from said ammo rack.
It was too heavy to do it manually.

If you actually had any clue, you would be aware the crane was mandatory to load shell to barrel from said ammo rack.
It was too heavy to do it manually.

And we all know that this Stiger had the same range like a normal tank and mg.