Feedback for Commander Revamppatch

So now I brought facts in form of replays and video evidence and you dont even try to argue it?
Do I have to assume your argument lost value due to my evidence and now you do ad hominems to get back to me?
Did you even watch the recommended times in the replay and see how the pgrens never couldve pulled of what the sturms did (running next to the enemy base to wipe 2 engineers, running zigzag over the battlefield to spot snipers and dispose of them etc.?

Do partisans and shock troops have the same function for you because both have smgs and overlapping combat ranges?

The entire post can be turned on you by asking you what is the point of Panzergrens if Sturms are so good then ? Panzergrens are useless because the doctrine already gives you Sturm that are so good and Opie Opie, like you said.

I don't recall Shock and Partisans being both elite high cost squads, but considering how short sighted you are, you probably can't tell the difference.

Now use your main account and stop making a joke out of yourself even more katitof.

The entire post can be turned on you by asking you what is the point of Panzergrens if Sturms are so good then ? Panzergrens are useless because the doctrine already gives you Sturm, like you said.

I don't recall Shock and Partisans being both elite high cost squads, but considering how short sighted you are, you probably can't tell the difference.

Now use your main account and stop making a joke out of yourself even more katitof.

As we are talking about the new patch, pgrens will have good syngery with vehicles.
Pgrens will get BIG buffs when pushing an objective in tandem with say a flamer HT or scout car. Their intended engagement range is medium, therefore when the sturms are dropping off, the pgrens are getting good.
You dont need to run headon into infantry which is very dangerous in the late game, because 4 men squads can be wiped at an instant when sitting on enemy mainline infantry backed up by T34/85, cromwells etc.
Pgrens are much safer, because they sit at medium range in heavy cover and can blast away.
The different units have totally different applications on the battlefield.
Sturms = harassment and abushing deep behind enemy lines (on their side of the VP)
Pgrens = heavy assault support for mainline infantry with big bonuses when next to vehicle.

Just watch Helping Hanses video, he showcases it perectly. He's better than both of us by a hundredfold and he retreats his sturms pretty much immediately after wiping something, because being so deep behind enemy lines, you face wipes when on the retreat back home.

I would however agree with you if you pick the sturm doctrine and apply the camo from the commander to your pgrens. Then both units would work almost the same. But by having camo its a difference like day and night.

As we are talking about the new patch, pgrens will have good syngery with vehicles.
Pgrens will get BIG buffs when pushing an objective in tandem with say a flamer HT or scout car. Their intended engagement range is medium, therefore when the sturms are dropping off, the pgrens are getting good.
You dont need to run headon into infantry which is very dangerous in the late game, because 4 men squads can be wiped at an instant when sitting on enemy mainline infantry backed up by T34/85, cromwells etc.
Pgrens are much safer, because they sit at medium range in heavy cover and can blast away.
The different units have totally different applications on the battlefield.
Sturms = harassment and abushing deep behind enemy lines (on their side of the VP)
Pgrens = heavy assault support for mainline infantry with big bonuses when next to vehicle.

No they don't, a 0.90 RA bonus and a ridicolously slow repair won't make a cqb unit popular if there's a better cqb options that doesn't need to pay for upgrade and gets camo.

In the same exact video you linked Hans uses 2 Sturm squads but never touch Panzergrenadiers.n..or you think you can cherrypick what you like ?

I would like to come back to the productive discussion about improving the "overwatch doctrine".

The majority of the community is not happy with the current design and wants the leFh replaced. Allied players fear howie spam, OKW players feel that this unit is not strong enough to make "overwatch" attractive, because you can get the howie also with "fortification doc" which is a lot better than the 1.7 version of "overwatch". Even Sturmpanther mentioned that hes not too happy about the leFh. So after celebrating that we have a rare accordance here, the question is which commander ability should replace the leFh.

As suggested before, Stuka CAS would be a nice option and i could certainly live with that solution.
Nevertheless I would like to propose a more radical idea:

Why not replacing the leFh with the Sturmtiger?
Besides its name, the Sturmtiger is not really a unit that excels in attacking. Hes too slow and he needs way to much time to aim. BUT he can be really useful in defending vps or fuel/ammo points.
Moving the ST to "Overwatch" would have the following advantages:
1. the Sturmtiger would be available in a doctrine that fits a lot better to his playing style.
2. replacing the leFh with the ST would certainly buff "overwatch"
3. Moving the ST would free a slot in Elite armor; an other heavy call-in tank could be included instead, a tank that can use panzer commander and HEAT grenades.

After this change "Overwatch" could look like this:

Conservative approach,the only change would be the Sturmtiger and the lower CP requirements for Jaegers:
1. Early warning
2. Goliath
3. Jaegers (CP 1)
4. Defense of the fatherland
5. Sturmtiger


Moderate approach:including some community ideas of the last weeks:
1. Early warning
2. "Demolition experts"(0 CP):
OKW can build the goliath, Sturms can lay tellers and build demos.
3. Jaegers (CP 1)
4. Defense of the fatherland
5. Sturmtiger


Radical approach including all community ideas of the last weeks:
1. Early warning (0 CP)
2. "Demolition experts"(0 CP):
OKW can build the goliath, Sturms can lay tellers and build demos.
3. Jaegers (Cp 1)
4. Stuka CAS
5. Sturmtiger

Looking back at NKVD before rework its plain obvious the only good thing it received during rework was Commisar. It already had IL-2 loiter + radio intercept and theres absolutely noway anyone would realistically pick it over Guard Rifle or Armored Assault, both these doctrines have good infantry squads/upgrades or late game tank combo while NKVD has Commisar and thats it

Who that Commisar is even supposed to support in first place? Cons are worthless late game without upgrades and Penals are forced into PTRS upgrade which kills their AI damage without Guards covering them. This doctrine has no endgame tanks or focus on infantry (something you'd expect from a doctrine with Commisar) and even infiltration units despite disruption being a supposed theme.

That doctrine is only in a *slightly* better state compared to pre-rework. It needs focus on infantry or utility thats not flamethower tanks or meme-traps

Urban Defence rework ended up being much better in comparison

Invised three posts because of smurf accusations. Just keep it civil and stay on topic.

I would like to come back to the productive discussion about improving the "overwatch doctrine".

Why not replacing the leFh with the Sturmtiger?

Moving the Sturmtiger to Overwatch would free up a slot in Elite Armor to add a Tiger I variant to OKW. Which would in turn make Elite Armor much more attractive as it would give OKW a mobile heavy option that isn't the park-on-VP-KT.

Radical approach including all community ideas of the last weeks:
1. Early warning (0 CP)
2. "Demolition experts"(0 CP):
OKW can build the goliath, Sturms can lay tellers and build demos.
3. Jaegers (Cp 1)
4. Stuka CAS
5. Sturmtiger

Looking at the CRP tourney I think radical is something that Overwatch needs to become a good and usable commander. Stuka CAS, earlier Jaegers and perhaps the other options would really help it become more popular by expanding OKW's fighting capabilities.

Jagdtiger makes more sense than sturmtiger or howitzer for Overwatch, in fact it makes much more sense for JT to be in Overwatch compared to Breakthrough

Jagdtiger to Overwatch, Sturmtiger to Breakthrough and a Tiger I for Elite Armor would be a good switch, but that might be out of scope for this patch.

I would be wary of adding more muni sinks into Overwatch because their cost, impact and ease of use might outweigh the Goliath's high-risk high-reward proposition.

Thematically I feel that the leFH fits the commander better than the Sturmtiger and I'm not sure a Sturmtiger would be a more useful replacement.
I think a Pak-40 could fit this commander.

Invised three posts because of smurf accusations. Just keep it civil and stay on topic.

"Accusations" totally unfounded

MY bad

Moving the Sturmtiger to Overwatch would free up a slot in Elite Armor to add a Tiger I variant to OKW. Which would in turn make Elite Armor much more attractive as it would give OKW a mobile heavy option that isn't the park-on-VP-KT.

I pointed that out few times that Sturmtiger doesn't really fit the elite armor there. There isn't much "Elite" in that unit. Tiger I would fit it much more.

As Smartie already said - moving Sturmtiger to Overwatch would buff the doctrine and leave the free slot for some heavy stuff like Tiger I to Elite Armor.

Of course that Tiger would be balance diffrently that ostheer version to make it more atractive (my personal ideas: static ambush, smoke shell - like in Cromwell tank, target weakpoint at vet 4/5).

Honestly speaking moving LeFH to overwatch wasn't a big buff for the doctrine. LeFH is more temping in fortification and replaced strafe was already a really good ability (remember the 2v2 non meta turney and spam this) which was just sadly put in a commander that is ammunition heavy. Vet5 LeFH ability isn't a good change becouse it won't be simply used. If you really want to leave LeFH at least give it a flare at vet 5.

Of course that Tiger would be balance diffrently that ostheer version to make it more atractive (my personal ideas: static ambush, smoke shell - like in Cromwell tank, target weakpoint at vet 4/5).

I don't think it needs anything as the Emergency Repairs, Panzer Commander and the HEAT shells the doctrine comes with would already make a Tiger I better than its Ostheer counterpart.

Why don't we simply aknowledge that OKW heavy does not work in the current state and rework the goddamn thing ?

If King Tiger becomes exclusive to Elite Armor it can be balanced towards a mobile Tiger-like unit with more armor but higher cost.

Just cut the damage to standard 160 and balance ROF, and give King Tiger better needed mobility

I'm sure Tiger I will be a nice additiob for the brand new okw doctrine, that will introduce cross faction stuff.

Why don't we simply aknowledge that OKW heavy does not work in the current state and rework the goddamn thing ?

If King Tiger becomes exclusive to Elite Armor it can be balanced towards a mobile Tiger-like unit with more armor but higher cost.

Just cut the damage to standard 160 and balance ROF, and give King Tiger better needed mobility
I'm sure Tiger I will be a nice addition for the brand new okw doctrine, that will introduce cross faction stuff.

I agree 100% that OKW heavies need serious rework (who could not?) but i fear thats out of scope.
So lets concentrate on our options to replace the Sturmtiger and move the reworked version to "Overwatch".
As Stark / Sander said Tiger I would be a dream come true but i also would happily take the option to build a Brummbaer with Elite Armor.
Other option: A KT commander tank which would come already equipped with tank commander and panzer tactician.

By the way: Stark, whats your experience with the 1.7 version of Elite armor? Did you / Sully used it in the tourney and if yes whats your opinion about the 223? Does it need to come out earlier?

Regarding "Overwatrch rework":
NoktDraz I really like the idea of giving the pak40 to "overwatch". I already made the suggestion to rework "defense of the fatherland" to an supply drop including a pak40. It could also include 2 schrecks and would help to get much needed AT.
How would you incorporate the pak40?

If you people want so much to play ost, why won't you just play ost instead of trying to make OKW even more of its clone?

many okw arent satisfied by the lefh? which one do u ask? this is a great unit. only allies fear this unit.-

so yes: let it be like it is

Well, if you (Katikof) can promise us that we will see the Jagdpanther or a 88mm flak in this game or a Tiger II thats actually useful and cost efficient then we happily take it.
But new units will not come anymore and the Tiger II is in a desperate state for almost a year. So pls explain how do you want to improve the rework commenders?

Well, if you (Katikof) can promise us that we will see the Jagdpanther or a 88mm flak in this game or a Tiger II thats actually useful and cost efficient then we happily take it.
But new units will not come anymore and the Tiger II is in a desperate state for almost a year. So pls explain how do you want to improve the rework commenders?

*laughs in IS-2*

*laughs in IS-2*

You think other units doesnt deserve improvements because IS-2 is also too weak? LOL great logic! Lets stop the discussion here.
But -hey- i still wait for you to deliver ideas to improve "overwatch" and "elite armor" without giving Wehrmachts units to OKW.