Feedback for Commander Revamppatch

Suggested long ago that stuka should fire 6 rockets in a circular area with a second of cooldown between each rocket, to punish static position and counter buildings but give a chance to retreat (instead of playing the "guess what line did i just draw" game), and to put it at 75 fuel like any rocket arty so it becomes accessible as an mg spam counter.

But the priority seems "fixing stuff" as always, without caring of this being viable or not after the "fix"

All rocket arty cost 80 fuel, stuka included.

All rocket arty cost 80 fuel, stuka included.

False

False

Half correct if anything.

While stuka didn't got cost reduction after health was cut in half as I thought, other rocket pieces do not cost 75.

Only played against PC and tested with cheatcommands. That being said, my thoughts as of 1.7:

GERMAN INFANTRY DOCTRINE
Before changes:
- Artillery Field Officers - Manpower
- Tactical Movement - Muni
- Relief Infantry - Muni
- Light Artillery - Muni
- Fragmentation Bombs - Muni

Current:
Halftrack - Manpower, Fuel
VSL - Muni (one time upgrade with indirect manpower cost)
Stormtroopers - Manpower (edit*)
Assault and Hold - Muni
Fragmentation Bombs - Muni

First of. The problem about this commander before was it lacked any appeal, strong point, or working tactic within the commander abilities. Munition starved with no power in early, mid or late game. It was considered the worst commander of all and it didn't achieved any cool concept/tactic for the german infantry that couldn't be achieved with other more capable commanders. So this one wasn't meta or competent material it was just a waste of space so please don't buff it to meta level make competent enough and fun to play with.

NEW COMMANDER ABILITIES

250 Halftrack HMG
- Mobile shooting platform like SU Scout Car. (like it).
- Being a mobile HMG for suppression requiring setup. (like it)
- Vet 1 Reinforcement platform. (not great)

Increase infantry mobility, harassing potential and also helps against enemy infantry either as defense or for ambushes.
What i don't like is that it does way too much stuff. Using it as a reinforcement platform displaces even more the normal 251 halftrack which is already rarely seen as for reinforcing even in team games and would make more sense with this commander than any other. Also, the 250 halftrack fits more with a "mechanized commander" concept than an infantry one but i can live with that.

Veteran Squads
- 5 men squad grenadiers.
- locks lmg upgrade.
- adds a g43
- makes medkit free.
- 5 men pioneers.
- doesnt lock flamethrower or wirecutter/minesweeper
- Panzergrenadiers "support package" (gives this unit a lot of utility):
"Rudimentary Repairs": Can repair vehicles.
"Mark Target":
"Combined Arms": Sprint and reduced accuracy when vehicles are near.

This commander ability gives you just way too much stuff. "Recon Overflight" ability gave you just that, Recon, but that enabled a lot of possibilities and tactical opportunities making it more organic.
Also, as other people mentioned, while cool in concept, panzergrenadier combined arms screams "mechanized". I'll save the panzergrenadier upgrade as another ability for other commander or the new one but it doesn't fits infantry that much. Aside from that i like the fifth men squad in grens and pios and the commander should synergies more with that special ability.

Stormtroopers
I don't think it fits thematically either. Stormtroopers are more of a disruption thing but nevermind i'm ok with it. Assgrens fit more but they also overlap with panzergrens as a close range combatant and now with 5 men squad pios and they are somewhat of a manpower bleed something that surely will be a cons of this commander. So not sure about it. On a side note, Stormtrooper Panzershreck upgrade mess-up with the hotkey (G) for "throw fire grenade" since its used for "attack ground" with the panzershreck.

Assault and Hold
Like the idea but i don't see any impact whatsoever when active.

Fragmentation Bombs
Can kill team weapons crews that then can be manned with upgraded grenadiers/pios without leaving them with just 1 squad member.

Like the overall idea of the commander, way more fleshed out than the original one. One thing though (I know its not popular but...) Relief infantry makes more sense thematically and also synergies with fifth men squads. Outstruppen from "Relief" will benefit also of "Assault and Hold".

Something like these will make more sense IMO:
- Halftrack (no reinforce).
- Veteran Squad Leaders.
5 men grenadier (free medkits).
5 men pios.
- Relief Infantry.
- Assault and Hold.
- Fragmentation Bombs.

My two cents.

off-topic p.d.: German "Battlephase" upgrades have different hotkeys (B, G and T) i dont get why is that way, it should be just "B" for all 3 (maybe a technical restriction?).

just watched some videos tightrope did for the patch.

pretty exciting and thanks for keep working on the game.

When's the ETA for this?

Only played against PC and tested with cheatcommands. That being said, my thoughts as of 1.7:

GERMAN INFANTRY DOCTRINE
Before changes:
- Artillery Field Officers - Manpower
- Tactical Movement - Muni
- Relief Infantry - Muni
- Light Artillery - Muni
- Fragmentation Bombs - Muni

Current:
Halftrack - Manpower, Fuel
VSL - Muni (one time upgrade with indirect manpower cost)
Stormtroopers - Muni
Assault and Hold - Muni
Fragmentation Bombs - Muni

First of. The problem about this commander before was it lacked any appeal, strong point, or working tactic within the commander abilities. Munition starved with no power in early, mid or late game. It was considered the worst commander of all and it didn't achieved any cool concept/tactic for the german infantry that couldn't be achieved with other more capable commanders. So this one wasn't meta or competent material it was just a waste of space so please don't buff it to meta level make competent enough and fun to play with.

NEW COMMANDER ABILITIES

250 Halftrack HMG
- Mobile shooting platform like SU Scout Car. (like it).
- Being a mobile HMG for suppression requiring setup. (like it)
- Vet 1 Reinforcement platform. (not great)

Increase infantry mobility, harassing potential and also helps against enemy infantry either as defense or for ambushes.
What i don't like is that it does way too much stuff. Using it as a reinforcement platform displaces even more the normal 251 halftrack which is already rarely seen as for reinforcing even in team games and would make more sense with this commander than any other. Also, the 250 halftrack fits more with a "mechanized commander" concept than an infantry one but i can live with that.

Veteran Squads
- 5 men squad grenadiers.
- locks lmg upgrade.
- adds a g43
- makes medkit free.
- 5 men pioneers.
- doesnt lock flamethrower or wirecutter/minesweeper
- Panzergrenadiers "support package" (gives this unit a lot of utility):
"Rudimentary Repairs": Can repair vehicles.
"Mark Target":
"Combined Arms": Sprint and reduced accuracy when vehicles are near.

This commander ability gives you just way too much stuff. "Recon Overflight" ability gave you just that, Recon, but that enabled a lot of possibilities and tactical opportunities making it more organic.
Also, as other people mentioned, while cool in concept, panzergrenadier combined arms screams "mechanized". I'll save the panzergrenadier upgrade as another ability for other commander or the new one but it doesn't fits infantry that much. Aside from that i like the fifth men squad in grens and pios and the commander should synergies more with that special ability.

Stormtroopers
I don't think it fits thematically either. Stormtroopers are more of a disruption thing but nevermind i'm ok with it. Assgrens fit more but they also overlap with panzergrens as a close range combatant and now with 5 men squad pios and they are somewhat of a manpower bleed something that surely will be a cons of this commander. So not sure about it. On a side note, Stormtrooper Panzershreck upgrade mess-up with the hotkey (G) for "throw fire grenade" since its used for "attack ground" with the panzershreck.

Assault and Hold
Like the idea but i don't see any impact whatsoever when active.

Fragmentation Grenade
Can kill team weapons crews that then can be manned with upgraded grenadiers/pios without leaving them with just 1 squad member.

Like the overall idea of the commander, way more fleshed out than the original one. One thing though (I know its not popular but...) Relief infantry makes more sense thematically and also synergies with fifth men squads. Outstruppen from "Relief" will benefit also of "Assault and Hold".

Something like these will make more sense IMO:
- Halftrack (no reinforce).
- Veteran Squad Leaders.
5 men grenadier (free medkits).
5 men pios.
- Relief Infantry.
- Assault and Hold.
- Fragmentation Bombs.

My two cents.

off-topic p.d.: German "Battlephase" upgrades have different hotkeys (B, G and T) i dont get why is that way, it should be just "B" for all 3 (maybe a technical restriction?).

Stormtroopers also cost manpower, not just muni.

And the 250 is still a Halftrack, it just doesn't make sense for me for a Halftrack not to be able to reinforce, especially a doctrinal one.

And I don't see the comparison of it to the 251 making sense, this is again a doctrinal open topped vehicle and it fills an entirely different role to the 251, so what if it can reinforce as well? So since it also has an MG it's even more similar? Give me a break.

It gives the player an option, it's what it's designed to do, doesn't matter if it shares some similarities with other such vehicles.

Going by that logic some Armies shouldn't even have support weapons or medium tanks then, and we all know how that turned out.

What a smart arse gave to OKW + 7 fuel truck?

Team games gonna be armor train again???

Stormtroopers also cost manpower, not just muni.

I meant manpower. EDITED

And the 250 is still a Halftrack, it just doesn't make sense for me for a Halftrack not to be able to reinforce, especially a doctrinal one.

And I don't see the comparison of it to the 251 making sense, this is again a doctrinal open topped vehicle and it fills an entirely different role to the 251, so what if it can reinforce as well? So since it also has an MG it's even more similar? Give me a break.

It gives the player an option, it's what it's designed to do, doesn't matter if it shares some similarities with other such vehicles.

Going by that logic some Armies shouldn't even have support weapons or medium tanks then, and we all know how that turned out.

That's my point, its there to fill other roles adding to the options of the faction but also fills current available roles overshadowing other units. My problem is not that it can reinforce but does a little of everything and maybe better than other units (referring to normal halftrack w/o flame projectors - that thing is never used as for reinforcing).

- HMG team is weak against AI, not against AT, it can garrison buildings. It's role, suppress infantry. Same roles different options.
- If you want to flank asap with your infantry instead of 222 now you can. Again, you have the option.
- You want to move your units around for decap/cap or harass without risking the squad to AI now you can. Ostheer doesn't have non-doctrinal open topped platforms so that's a new option.
- With vet 1 you can reinforce too. An alternative to the halftrack w/o flame projectors (you can also fit a pio squad with flamethrower - not as strong but its another option)

Agreed doctrinal units should give you more options or specialized options or fill a non existent role. But the HMG halftrack does everything that's my complaint.

Was Scorched Earth trap ever used during tournament? I dont think I saw even a single one, all this "put it on cutoff it will be OP" is theorycrafting similar vehicle camouflage on Tank Hunter commander, sounds cool but never in seen in actual gameplay

It might work in 1v1 but NKVD isnt that good for 1v1 due to no elite infantry and good tanks anyway.

So far it's a waste commander ability spot, Partisans or PPSh upgrade for cons would complement this commander better

I watched around 10 games yesterday and if "overwatch" was picked, its abilities was rarely used. Admitted some games were over after 5 minutes thx to dominant play of top teams but i really think this commander needs some buffs.
Some observations:
- Goliath was not build in any games
- Jaegers were barely seen and didnt contribute much
- leFH was not build in any games

So all in all, the early impressions are not really promising.
Lowering the CP for the Jaegers will certainly help but it might not be enough.

So here are some ideas:

- Create 1 commander ability slot called "demolition experts": Gives you not only the option to build goliaths but Sturms can also lay down tellers and build demos
- Jaegers at CP1
- Replace the leFH with an AT-airstrike

I watched around 10 games yesterday and if "overwatch" was picked, its abilities was rarely used. Admitted some games were over after 5 minutes thx to dominant play of top teams but i really think this commander needs some buffs.
Some observations:
- Goliath was not build in any games
- Jaegers were barely seen and didnt contribute much
- leFH was not build in any games

So all in all, the early impressions are not really promising.
Lowering the CP for the Jaegers will certainly help but it might not be enough.

So here are some ideas:

- Create 1 commander ability slot called "demolition experts": Gives you not only the option to build goliaths but Sturms can also lay down tellers and build demos
- Jaegers at CP1
- Replace the leFH with an AT-airstrike

No one is ever going to risk wasting munitions on a Goliath when even Brits are invulnerable to it due to a combination of Brace and their stupidly overpowered anti-air/anti-infantry/anti-armor gun that's always built alongside whatever other emplacement.

But I'll upvote anything that gives Sturmpioneers something to do other than plant their pathetic mines that get triggered by infantry and trade 30 munitions for two models while leaving flanks exposed to vehicle rushes -- doesn't even have to be Tellers, can just be capture point booby traps, but something other than the bloody shoe mine to place instead of just standing around waiting to flank or spamming shoes.

Stuka Close Air Support (AT) would be nice for Overwatch. OKW severely lacks AT tools beyond JP4/Panther. Would also put a strategic choice (back) into the doctrine: spam golliaths or save up for CAS.


Also I don't think the tourney can give very good indications of the abilities/commanders as I feel most teams were not used to them. In VonIvan's stream last week for example I saw them training in regular automatch with the normal commanders.

No one is ever going to risk wasting munitions on a Goliath when even Brits are invulnerable to it due to a combination of Brace and their stupidly overpowered anti-air/anti-infantry/anti-armor gun that's always built alongside whatever other emplacement.

Its non meta and always was no meta, unless you play at 4 digit rank tier, which coincidentally, you do.

But I'll upvote anything that gives Sturmpioneers something to do other than plant their pathetic mines that get triggered by infantry and trade 30 munitions for two models while leaving flanks exposed to vehicle rushes -- doesn't even have to be Tellers, can just be capture point booby traps, but something other than the bloody shoe mine to place instead of just standing around waiting to flank or spamming shoes.

Oh, so when soviet plant these mines, its overpowered and unsustainable op bleeding mine, but then okw does it, its useless and pathetic?

No one is ever going to risk wasting munitions on a Goliath when even Brits are invulnerable to it due to a combination of Brace and their stupidly overpowered anti-air/anti-infantry/anti-armor gun that's always built alongside whatever other emplacement.

But I'll upvote anything that gives Sturmpioneers something to do other than plant their pathetic mines that get triggered by infantry and trade 30 munitions for two models while leaving flanks exposed to vehicle rushes -- doesn't even have to be Tellers, can just be capture point booby traps, but something other than the bloody shoe mine to place instead of just standing around waiting to flank or spamming shoes.

Im not a goliath fanboy but i think there is no need to take the unit out if we can melt it together with demos/ tellers to "demolitian experts abilitiy". Booby traps can be placed by Jaegers who should / and probably will come out earlier. That being said i fully agree with you on the standard okw-mine. The faction with the worst AT guns also has the worst mines against tanks. One reason more to give sturm in this doctrine better options. It fits thematically and would give players a real incentive to choose this doctrine, Same for Stuka Close Air Support (AT).

Besides that "Defense of the fatherland" could be adjusted. The theme of the ability is nice but i would like to see the inf buff replaced.
Why not make it a passive ability which gives OKW the option to build a pak 40 and the 2cm flak enplacements?

I meant manpower. EDITED



That's my point, its there to fill other roles adding to the options of the faction but also fills current available roles overshadowing other units. My problem is not that it can reinforce but does a little of everything and maybe better than other units (referring to normal halftrack w/o flame projectors - that thing is never used as for reinforcing).

- HMG team is weak against AI, not against AT, it can garrison buildings. It's role, suppress infantry. Same roles different options.
- If you want to flank asap with your infantry instead of 222 now you can. Again, you have the option.
- You want to move your units around for decap/cap or harass without risking the squad to AI now you can. Ostheer doesn't have non-doctrinal open topped platforms so that's a new option.
- With vet 1 you can reinforce too. An alternative to the halftrack w/o flame projectors (you can also fit a pio squad with flamethrower - not as strong but its another option)

Agreed doctrinal units should give you more options or specialized options or fill a non existent role. But the HMG halftrack does everything that's my complaint.

It's perfect then, you can use the 250 as a Panzerschreck bus because it's open topped and reinforce and the 251 for it's flame projectors.

I would honestly never use dig in and don't even see any reason for it when I have the best MGs in the game at my disposal.

Edit: Lockdown vehicles are just a pain in the ass in general, I often forget that even my Ambulances is in lockdown when I order it to move, add to that the non-existent animations for it as well and yeah...

Edit2: Talking about lockdown of vehicles that might need to move at some point, it's not such a big deal for the Opel Blitz, 223 or let's say the PE's Hummels from CoH since you're not going to be moving those vehicles a lot anyhow.

Overwatch indeed needs a serious rework because its still MEH. I'd be very disappointed if after this commander revamp (awesome btw, nice job) we still have this as a never used commander. I think this commander could be fixed turning it into a defensive doc.

Problems with commander are:
-Lefh needs to be replaced with different thing.
-Goliath are still a troll unit not worth it besides a lucky shot (or if you are not vonIvan). I can't barely see a solution between goliaths been UP or OP. So perhaps best idea (as some people said) is make them come with an ability (tellers to sturms).
-For the father land its a bit meh too plus its a munition cost ability to a commander (if changed and according to the suggestions AT Strafe, tellers...) gonna be heavily muni based. Dunno how to aproach the change to be honest buff it or change to a new passive ability.
-Jaeger light infantry its still too weak. I'd lower it to 1CP or require a tech estructure (medic or mech truck) so you can get use of if it earlier.

Overwatch indeed needs a serious rework because its still MEH. I'd be very disappointed if after this commander revamp (awesome btw, nice job) we still have this as a never used commander. I think this commander could be fixed turning it into a defensive doc.

Problems with commander are:
-Lefh needs to be replaced with different thing.
-Goliath are still a troll unit not worth it besides a lucky shot (or if you are not vonIvan). I can't barely see a solution between goliaths been UP or OP. So perhaps best idea (as some people said) is make them come with an ability (tellers to sturms).
-For the father land its a bit meh too plus its a munition cost ability to a commander (if changed and according to the suggestions AT Strafe, tellers...) gonna be heavily muni based. Dunno how to aproach the change to be honest buff it or change to a new passive ability.
-Jaeger light infantry its still too weak. I'd lower it to 1CP or require a tech estructure (medic or mech truck) so you can get use of if it earlier.

Fortifications is already the OKW's Defensive Doctrine, if this is turned into another version the same complaints about the Ostheer Defensive doctrine will arise that they're too similar to each other, but the problem for the OKW is that it's limited in terms of options because of it's 8 commanders (soon to be 9) compared to the Ostheer's 18/19.

Plus it already has the theme of a "Recon" sort of doctrine, I'd say just go with that. But instead of turning it into the German counterpart of the USF Recon Company base it off of the German "Aufklärungsabteilung" or in English, Recon detachment which every Panzer Division had.

It was lightly armed/equipped, fast and mobile. That's the idea behind the Jagers I think, being Recon infantry, and my suggestion of the 223/250 with Radio antennas is there to help them out with that.

My other idea was to give the ability to the sWS-s to pack up and move to put emphasis of the mobility and speed of the light Recon detachment. The Radio officer I also mentioned is another thing that would probably make a good replacement of the LeFH.

250 ht still feels underwhelming and not worth over hellfire 251.
It's suppression may be useful but an MG42 is still a much better choice that can retreat and can't be countered by atg.

-KEEP the changes to all ht doctrine but replace the 250 with another unit or ability. 250ht would be a valuable addition to OKW since they lack a proper infantry transport and a powerful suppression platform (no, opel truck is a joke)

250 ht still feels underwhelming and not worth over hellfire 251.
It's suppression may be useful but an MG42 is still a much better choice that can retreat and can't be countered by atg.

-KEEP the changes to all ht doctrine but replace the 250 with another unit or ability. 250ht would be a valuable addition to OKW since they lack a proper infantry transport and a powerful suppression platform (no, opel truck is a joke)

That's the reason why I suggested it for Overwatch doctrine, albeit with an upgrade to an Antenna as well, like the 223, so it can fill in a Recon role to fit in better with the commander, but even without it I think it would still be useful like you said. The Jaegers coming in it could easily be turned into a combat group or something.

Fortifications is already the OKW's Defensive Doctrine, if this is turned into another version the same complaints about the Ostheer Defensive doctrine will arise that they're too similar to each other, but the problem for the OKW is that it's limited in terms of options because of it's 8 commanders (soon to be 9) compared to the Ostheer's 18/19.

Plus it already has the theme of a "Recon" sort of doctrine, I'd say just go with that. But instead of turning it into the German counterpart of the USF Recon Company base it off of the German "Aufklärungsabteilung" or in English, Recon detachment which every Panzer Division had.

It was lightly armed/equipped, fast and mobile. That's the idea behind the Jagers I think, being Recon infantry, and my suggestion of the 223/250 with Radio antennas is there to help them out with that.

My other idea was to give the ability to the sWS-s to pack up and move to put emphasis of the mobility and speed of the light Recon detachment. The Radio officer I also mentioned is another thing that would probably make a good replacement of the LeFH.

Well, i think it would be worth a test to give "overwatch" the 223 instead of "early warning". That would be a nice buff but the radio car need some adjustments too. It was only build in only 1 game (Theodosios). I think it should come out earlier to make a difference in combat. My suggestion would be to make it a CP1 /CP2 call-in. The upgrade could be more expensive then. And it should definitely give your teammates resources too.

If you wanna make the 223 a unique unit for a certain commander, then we could talk about moving the 223 to "Overwatch" (replaces Early warning) and giving Elite armor the new 251 (maybe with Pzgrens).