Feedback for Commander Revamppatch

I'm worried primarily about PzGren package being lumped in. However, I feel that it can be salvaged by giving utility to squads already affected by Veteran Squad Leaders.

I'm all for making the G43 transferrable rather than a 10% upgrade to accuracy. I think it needs to be said that the goal should not be to make something that can compete with the MG42 or G43 package in DPS, just as how MP40s for Volks shouldn't be competing with StG44s for DPS. Besides, the extra man boosts DPS by 20% already, plus you can potentially still pick up slot weapons. It should by all accounts be less DPS but more utility and survivability. The commander already adds a 25% timed accuracy boosts as well via Assault and Hold, which is basically better OKW Breakthrough as-is. Adding too much value just makes it a no-brainer upgrade.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that I'm worried it's a no-brainer upgrade right now because it has good DPS upgrade and good durability upgrade but doesn't have any flavor. A utility-focused approach instead of raw DPS is something that Wehr doesn't currently have, is flavorful and thematic, and synergizes well with (and adds skill elements to) the new Assault and Hold.

That said utility NEEDS to translate into killing power or else this doctrine won’t see a lot of play. What’s the point of having mainline Infantry that can’t kill anything and instead gets killed by everything else short of engineer units. Why not just go ostruppen for 6 men AND an lmg down the line. Mp40 Volks will beat stg volks at short range. There is a range where they excel over their counterpart. 5 man gren squads currently do not beat lmg greens at any range. You’re sacrificing wiping power and manpower bleed on the opponent for what?

Now, soviet FHQ - its getting weird, now you also need to micro structures...

The UKF Mortar Pit used to have 4 types of toggleable shells as well back in the UKF Alpha:

And Planet Smasher's Artillery pit mod gives access to the WP shells when the mortars are garrisoned in the pit.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that I'm worried it's a no-brainer upgrade right now

Isn't it kinda the point of choosing a doctrine that it comes with 'no-brainer' upgrades over the stock army? If I choose Special Operations doctrine as OKW, I'm getting that Command Panther over the regular one. Whenever I choose a G43 commander as OST, I'm getting them G43s over the MG42s.

German Infantry is a specialized commander that doesn't offer anything big late game. No big call-ins, no big off-maps. It's a choice to specialize in infantry rather than dominating abilities or units. I wouldn't mind if it were to be a straight upgrade for German infantry, as it is supposed to be exactly that.

I'm worried primarily about PzGren package being lumped in. However, I feel that it can be salvaged by giving utility to squads already affected by Veteran Squad Leaders.

I'm all for making the G43 transferrable rather than a 10% upgrade to accuracy. I think it needs to be said that the goal should not be to make something that can compete with the MG42 or G43 package in DPS, just as how MP40s for Volks shouldn't be competing with StG44s for DPS. Besides, the extra man boosts DPS by 20% already, plus you can potentially still pick up slot weapons. It should by all accounts be less DPS but more utility and survivability. The commander already adds a 25% timed accuracy boosts as well via Assault and Hold, which is basically better OKW Breakthrough as-is. Adding too much value just makes it a no-brainer upgrade.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that I'm worried it's a no-brainer upgrade right now because it has good DPS upgrade and good durability upgrade but doesn't have any flavor. A utility-focused approach instead of raw DPS is something that Wehr doesn't currently have, is flavorful and thematic, and synergizes well with (and adds skill elements to) the new Assault and Hold.

I agree that mark should probably be on pios, but the repair and combined arms make sense and seem balanced more or less. The repair will probably be a huge noobtrap actually, as I could foresee entire pgren blobs getting wiped out in teamgames while repairing a tank lol, but that’s more or less an l2p thing.

Well there’s less and then there’s less. A 20% dps boost along with survivability and (possibly) utility is great, but doesn’t the lmg42 do a large majority of the dps on lmg grens? I seem to remember someone saying it almost does more damage than all the other 3 rifles combined. If that’s so means it’s closer to a 70-80% dps increase. I just worry that LMGs and g43s will continue to be a downright better option just because they’ll trade much better in infantry fights. Then again, there is only one more g43 in the g43 package and that comes at the expense of 2 k98s so I don’t really know how the dps would stack up there. It might be more or less close to equivalent. Another thing to keep in mind though is that the other g43 in the g43 package adds a lot more moving accuracy to the squad. I’m not sure ai can reach a real conclusion without actually playing with it more but I just want to avoid grenadiers becoming a manpower sink because they can’t trade instead of benefitting from the upgrade.

The lmg is better than the old 5 man because it not only is a huge dps increase, but it’s focused dps instead of spread out through the squad. Playing against the new Infantry for a few games it seemed ok, the most annoying thing about the doctrine was actually the stormtroopers.
Would it be possible to give the veteran sergeant gren a different model?

Just throwing this out there. If most tank cannons "near" range is 0, it's basically impossible to take advantage of the near range bonuses such as accuracy and penetration unless the barrel is jammed into your opponets tank. You think it may be better to make it a more accessible range like 3-4? Missing point blank shots because you're at 1 meter from target is unlikely, but feels like shit when it happens.

Would it be possible to give the veteran sergeant gren a different model?

I like the Panzerfusilier's model a lot, and Wehr doesn't use it!

Just throwing this out there. If most tank cannons "near" range is 0, it's basically impossible to take advantage of the near range bonuses such as accuracy and penetration unless the barrel is jammed into your opponets tank. You think it may be better to make it a more accessible range like 3-4? Missing point blank shots because you're at 1 meter from target is unlikely, but feels like shit when it happens.

Wait this is a thing? That’s bizarre, and it’d be great if that was changed. Does jamming your tank into his tank even count as 0 range?

Wait this is a thing? That’s bizarre, and it’d be great if that was changed. Does jamming your tank into his tank even count as 0 range?

I don't know, but from what I theorize is that the shell would actually have to travel 0 distance inorder for that penetration and accuracy to apply, so essentially if the shell leaves the barrel and goes anywhere you basically don't get the benefit. Which is kinda stupid IMO.

I don't know, but from what I theorize is that the shell would actually have to travel 0 distance inorder for that penetration and accuracy to apply, so essentially if the shell leaves the barrel and goes anywhere you basically don't get the benefit. Which is kinda stupid IMO.

Let me clear this one up for you guys. There's a linear line drawn from near to mid, and once more from mid to far. At any distance nearer than the near threshold or further than the far threshold, the values are capped at the near/far accuracies/pens respectively.

So, a very close target does not necessarily have to be 0 shell distance for there to be greater accuracy on the target. While it is true that (assuming near range is 0) it's practically impossible to actually get the full near accuracy/pen, you can get really damn close to it to the point where the difference is practically negligible. Any modifiers like vet or special abilities that increase accuracy/pen is just multiplied straight on top of these values.

Let's look at an example. Assuming a near range of 0, a near accuracy of 1, a mid range of 25, and a mid accuracy of 0, "missing point blank shots because you're at 1m from target" is therefore actually highly unlikely, because it would be theoretically very close to 100% hit chance (96%) if shooting at a target with size 1.

Take a T-34/76's gun, which has n/m/f accuracy of 0.05/0.0375/0.025. It's accuracy profile is a -1 to all fields, which just means it will use the minimum range (0) as near and the maximum range (50) as far. This gun has a completely linear range:accuracy curve. A PzIV is target size 22, so all accuracy against a PzIV is multiplied by 22. This translates to a 110% chance to hit the Pz4 at point blank (0m), but of course in-game this generally isn't possible to replicate, as you stated. However, when you are just a few meters away, chances to hit a PzIV might as well be 110% even when it is more along the lines of 95%. This is because there is scatter and collision. Even if you roll that 5% chance to miss, the shot would've scattered and hit whatever it collides with. At close ranges, there's a very high chance that the scatter range is within the vehicle hitbox. Therefore, it's reasonable to say that a T-34 in-practice has a 100% hit rate vs a PzIV within ~10 meters, even though technically it doesn't have a 100% hit chance until the physically impossible range of within 2 meters. At max range, this matchup would be a 50/50 to hit the PzIV, and then a lower chance to hit it via a missed shot that lands close enough.

EDIT: I should add that moving (and this includes turning the hull, but not the turret) would slap a 0.5 accuracy modifier and a 2x scatter modifier to any tank gun, with the exception being USF vehicles (they just have a smaller penalty). Ergo, you may have a chance to miss at close range if the vehicle is moving because both your chance of an on-target shot and your chance of hitting with a missed shot is halved.

This commander is decent actualy because these units are situational only noob use all of them in same time.

exactly. Commander gives possibilities but it's sure you won't use them all. Plus all of those units are mediacore anyway.

Gren squad leader might become complete no brainer now, making them budget tommies, but without any weakness of tommies and with all the benefits(outside of equipping weapons for obvious reason).

Why is it diffrent that upgrade with lmg42 which also gives mostly a stat offensive buffs? They won't be equipt with extra weapon, their reinforcing cost is 30mp (which is the highest of all infantry) and old version of the upgrade - g43 squad lider was based on a huge RNG. The model could die in any stupid scenario and his weapon won't transfer to a diffrent model - highly unfair.

Plus this upgrade costs 60 ammo per squad. If you want to upgrade all typies of your infantry you need unimaginable ammount of ammo therefore you won't use it on "attack and Hold" ability or fragmentation bombing strafe.

Now, soviet FHQ - its getting weird, now you also need to micro structures...

So you claim that Gren squad leader is no brainer ability and timeless FHQ aura buff on the other hand wasn't... good way of thinking

That said utility NEEDS to translate into killing power or else this doctrine won’t see a lot of play. What’s the point of having mainline Infantry that can’t kill anything and instead gets killed by everything else short of engineer units. Why not just go ostruppen for 6 men AND an lmg down the line. Mp40 Volks will beat stg volks at short range. There is a range where they excel over their counterpart. 5 man gren squads currently do not beat lmg greens at any range. You’re sacrificing wiping power and manpower bleed on the opponent for what?

+1

PS. sorry for double post

Just throwing this out there. If most tank cannons "near" range is 0, it's basically impossible to take advantage of the near range bonuses such as accuracy and penetration unless the barrel is jammed into your opponets tank. You think it may be better to make it a more accessible range like 3-4? Missing point blank shots because you're at 1 meter from target is unlikely, but feels like shit when it happens.

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Accuracy and penetration are linear so when you are in close range the values used are between the "close value" and "mid value". Changing the value to 3-4 meter would have same a similar effect as increasing "close range" by something like 8% while keeping it 0.

As far as I know the value are calculate the distance to target at the time the shot is fired and are not affected by the actual travel length of the projectile.

1.7

WC51
-No longer gains shared veterancy
A number of units have shared veterancy (officer etch) which should be removed. Shared veterancy should only apply to support unit with very low DPS like 251.

M-42
-Canister range from 60 to 50
It can still out-range a HMG there is not reason for 200mp unit to be a substitute to a mortar, the range should be 40 or bellow. The unit continues to fire very quickly and is one of the best units to bring down ambient building for no good reason.


Shock Troops
-Grenades no longer share a cooldown.
Other unit like commandos and MP40 grenadier share cooldown there is little reason for shock troops to be the exception here. The argument that they did not share CD for a long time does hold any water since the grenade received a massive buff 300% far damage buff in the same patch and the ability to damage ambient buildings.

Shock Troops are receiving a number of buffs while the main reason that people do not use them anymore has probably more to do with Guards over-performing than with Shock being UP. Shock where used and since have seen little change and slipped to obscurity when Guard (and Penals) got buffed. Imo continuing buffing shock, in a faction that is doing good, is step in the wrong direction it messes with balance to solve a diversity issue. The same approach was taken with Penal troops and the results where poor for a very long time (they still are imo).

The main problem with shock troops is the bleed and I am actually surprised that changes do not move toward that direction mostly.

Forward Headquarters
-CP requirement from 2 to 1
-FHQ Aura is now a 30 second timed ability with a 90 second cooldown; free ability.
I would suggest some improvement to the aura usability.

FHQ comes without the aura (or with powerful aura) with a slight discount, player can upgrade the FHQ to get the current aura for a cost. This change allow the player to decide hwo much his want to invest/commit in the FHQ.

In addition the aura is split into 2 parts, a passive one giving a small bonus (20%?) of current and the rest comes from the active part.

Forward Observation HQ
-Fuel cost from 60 to 40.
-Ambient Buildings that are converted can now reinforce nearby troops.
The problem with the ability is mostly the CP. The ability comes way to late.

I suggest again a similar approach as for Soviet HQ. Lower CP and cost allow the unlock of the abilities with further investment in cost and maybe lock some of them behind tech.

Since it is a Forward Observation HQ maybe increase sight a bit more?

On another note the reinforcement times and XP values of many units some of them in the revamp need to be looked at. If I remember correctly St.T and JLIR fall under this category.

having played with and against infantry, it seems like a pretty viable commander now, its actually pretty fun to play it. might need some very very very slight tuning down, maybe remove one of the 10% bonuses that the veteran sergeant gives, probably the 10% recieved accuracy, or increase the a little bit.
stormtroopers are quite good, and extremely annoying to deal with.

nkvd seems a little underwhelming right now. only played against it, but i didnt really feel much of an impact from the doctrine.

elite armored is pretty strong, minus the sturmtiger. the vehicle crew repairs might need adjustment, either in cost or amount repaired. currently it repairs too much for too little. not really sure what the sturmtigers role is at the moment, if its supposed to be a powerful squad wiper its definitely not doing its job. making it mutually exclusive with KT was good (doesnt really mean much since both are pretty bad atm), but it would be nice to see an increase to cost, increase in combat effectiveness, and maybe an armor decrease.

mechanised seems like middle of the line i nterms of effectiveness. not really sure how i feel about the jeep, it seems really flimsy and it becomes combat effective around the time that its counters hit the field (raketen, faust). usf early game needs as many combat effective units as possible because of how strong sturms and mg42s are, so it kinda feels like a trap almost. wondering if making it come with a similar MG as a UC would be too much. the HVAP shermans are actually ok in terms of armor piercing, two actually pose a significant threat to most axis armor. they still have the range of a medium tank so theyre not true tank destroyers. does the hvap have a penalty against infantry? also, felt like that cavalry riflemen took forever to reinforce, might just be me tho.

75mu for 2 tommy guns...why not a bar for 60mu? 60mu for 2 tommy guns will be reasonable.

Because getting BAR for CQC squad is pointless, you're not gonna engage at mid or long ranges with it and at close range its not really better than default weapon
Covering fire was also overnerfed, is it really worth it to lock down your squad for 35% penalty for enemy?

Actually, I'm confused too, why is it such an expensive upgrade for 2 guns while you can get 4 Tommies for 90 on other CQC squads?

P.S wouldn't mind if Bar munition cost was 50 and stats toned down accordingly.

Actually, I'm confused too, why is it such an expensive upgrade for 2 guns while you can get 4 Tommies for 90 on other CQC squads?

P.S wouldn't mind if Bar munition cost was 50 and stats toned down accordingly.

Timing of the weapon, power, and how available Calvary Rifles are in comparison to elites. Even if you lock it behind Officers, it’s still very cheap for the power you get. It can be adjusted, but it also goes with early WC 51 drivebys.

From playing lots of 2v2s yesterday and today:

- OKW
Overwatch doctrine: Might be borderline decent for 1v1. 2v2+ it´s weak. Really really weak. Jäger Light is decent enough but other than situational LeFH the doctrine doesn´t offer much of anything for team games.

Elite Armor: The abilities got buffed, that´s good because they deserved it. Heat round Pumas are very good. Still wouldn´t go for this doctrine because I don´t like Sturmtiger and the doctrine doesn´t offer any sort of recon or off-map ability to complement going OKW Mech.

I wouldn´t even consider using either Overwatch or Elite Amor over Spec Ops or Fortifications in 2v2.

- Soviets
Urban Defense: Shocks are still too weak. Not sure why but I didn´t feel any difference in their mid-range DPS. Maybe it´s time to turn them into a pure ambush unit like commandos with camo but less survivability. M42 at gun is worth it now. KV2 better than before and probably viable in some situations.

NKVD: Good enough. Radio Intercept + IL2 is strong already. Then you have the Commisar which is worth getting. Scorched Earth is good. KV8 needs more testing.