Feedback for Commander Revamppatch

Urban defense units balance and abilities that where removed.

The abilities removed from the commander are Incendiary Barrage, Armored Vehicle detection. Since these abilities where in the commander one could claim that they are part of scope and try to Fix them. Incendiary is a rather good spot but Armored Vehicle detection could use a redesign and then become available to more commanders. Some suggestions for those abilities (and other) can be found here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/81491/suggestions-for-commanders-revamp.

Shock troops
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Although shock troops are CQC unit they do not necessarily fit the Urban theme since they are not particularly good vs garrison. In addition the performance might be prove problematic with forward reinforce, healing and aura especially if one uses merge to reduce bleed further.
Shock troops are also one of the most common ability available to 6 commander and making available to one more commander would mean than 1/3 of soviet commander have them.

Imo the increasing DPS to make unit more attractive is a rather sloppy and ultimately a bad solution. High lethality means that fights last less and there is less room for tactical play since other random factor like being caught out of position have more impact.

In the specific case increasing mid DPS is bad for a number of additional reasons.
Weapon profiles and relative positioning was one of the best improvements of this game and the change break both ideas. If SMGs are to be good at mid range that should apply to all of them and not some of them, but that would make assault rifles even less viable than they currently are. Unit with assault rifles are going to have trouble fighting Shock troops since the only good range for them would be long where these weapon are bad.

About the "Thompson" solution.
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Comments:
If Shock troops (ST) need better mid DPS and that is a big if, it would a far better solution to give them 4 ppsh +2 SVT, with PPsh being transferable resulting in ST losing their mid DPS after losing 2 models. That would force the unit to close distance with enemy or disengage instead of being able to fight out it in mid to close range against most axis infantry.

But in my opinion the problem with ST (and other sgms units) has more to do with the bleed and not the actually DPS. So a solution should focus on reducing the bleed and not increasing DPS. Oddly when the Wer officer was faced with the same problem the solution was an ability that reduces bleed and the result are quite good from my experience at least. Adding an ability similar to officer would help balance the unit allot more than an increasing the DPS.

Alternately one could make the "armor" a squad ability thus available to conscripts merged into Shock thus allowing players to greatly reduce the bleeding effect. That would the bonus affect of weaker team weapon maned by shock troops.

Storm troopers get anti caches capabilities for better synergy with the encirclement commander. In addition they grenade does not one shoot caches but they have to finish it off with small arm fire which will take long with K98 and thus they have to wait for the weapon upgrade contrary demolition charges.

Well Commandos had the demo already just had it changed due to the times meta. So if anything storms getting anti cache was mirroring them to begin with. For 370 mp and spawning at 3 man they should be able to do their original ability since demos are no longer in meta or even functioning on the same mechanics. Simplest fix is allowing them to do what they did before.

Well Commandos had the demo already just had it changed due to the times meta. So if anything storms getting anti cache was mirroring them to begin with. For 370 mp and spawning at 3 man they should be able to do their original ability since demos are no longer in meta or even functioning on the same mechanics. Simplest fix is allowing them to do what they did before.

Actually no, Storm troopers (ST.T) get the anti caches because it increases the synergy with "close the pocket" ability.

If you want to compare infiltration Commandos (IC) with St.T you will see that there a number of difference since the spawn with K98s and not smgs.

St.T not only lack as a infiltration unit they also overlap with camo PG that have camo with first strike and can sprint.

You are missing the point here, The commandos demo was on them from the get go and changed due to a meta at that time. That meta has been removed due to demo changes. So restricting the Demo from being planted in the cap circle is no longer required. If they had that from the get go as an infiltration unit, their job was to take out caches and flank. So as said before, pretty fair comment to say it should get the restriction removed. they spawn for 370 at 3 men, so they cannot steal team weapons they flank so they should be excellent harassers and that includes caches. If anything with no encirclement to follow up don't really see an issue with that.

You are missing the point here, The commandos demo was on them from the get go and changed due to a meta at that time. That meta has been removed due to demo changes. So restricting the Demo from being planted in the cap circle is no longer required. If they had that from the get go as an infiltration unit, their job was to take out caches and flank. So as said before, pretty fair comment to say it should get the restriction removed. they spawn for 370 at 3 men, so they cannot steal team weapons they flank so they should be excellent harassers and that includes caches. If anything with no encirclement to follow up don't really see an issue with that.

Actually I am not missing the point, just because a unit could do something at some point does not mean that is should still be able to do it, units should have a role that fits them and fits their faction and the tools to fulfill it. Currently In.C have little reason to have an anti cache role, St.T actually have a reason for that capability.

If your approach is to make In.C to behave like St.T then you should be suggesting that the spawn 5 men with rifles and have a DOT grenade.

Commandos fit in the role of back line harassers, they have not lost the ability it was changed due to a bad meta. The change takes little effort to revert. Making them 5 men with rifles and DOT is just more mirroring. I will be interested to see what the team comes up with as they've mentioned looking at it which is great news for a 370 MP unit with a gimped ability and squad count.

Commandos fit in the role of back line harassers, they have not lost the ability it was changed due to a bad meta. The change takes little effort to revert. Making them 5 men with rifles and DOT is just more mirroring. I will be interested to see what the team comes up with as they've mentioned looking at it which is great news for a 370 MP unit with a gimped ability and squad count.

Yet you are the one asking for commandos to mirror St.T and be able to destroy cashes exactly because St.T can.

Here is you original post exactly asking to mirror St.T anti cashes capability.

Worth pointing out the the balance team and Andy_RE that the British infiltration commandos still have a leftover from old stealth demos of doom. they cannot deny caches due to being restricted from planting Demos inside of cap circles. With the current changes to storms on the way (anti Cache incendiary) id think it important to ensure they also get a fix to bring back their job of harassing the back lines, seeing as they are also spawning at a reduced squad count despite being more expensive id think its a small ask as they will have time to plant a demo to deny a cache, get off a quick flank and need to retreat to gain their full squad size.

Don't you?
Super mobile HMG that can not be suppressed and is backed by strongest CQC unit in early game that can also keep that HMG indefinitely in combat, helping to easily cut off opponent from resources until they get actual AT or more expensive and later coming light vehicle.

If you want to swing "history" card, please make sure you actually are aware of how the history went.



If you don't see benefit of a unit and don't deem it worth getting, then don't get it.
It'll have a role in capturing and holding cut-offs in early game.

There are couple of halftrucks in game which provide suppression and fire support for low-ish cost and have to be immobile for full benefit.

This one needs to be locked down for its suppression, because its the only one in game which happens to be able to transport infantry as well, so a tradeoff needed to be there to keep it in check.

And is viable for like what, the first 5 minutes of the match?

And I don't mind the trade off but the problem is that it also happens to be in 2 other doctrines as well and being an an Armor MG on tracks is certainly a big improvement compared to it's previous state but I still don't think it will be as useful in the long run if it can't reinforce while locked down as well.

The original mirror then would have been giving storms anti cache. which doesn't bother me as its achieved by a different means, commandos having a demo makes sense as its a higher investment of MP for 3 men, so as they cant steal weapons they flank and cant fight unless in very favorable positions/cover it makes very good sense for them to retain the demo. Your suggestion of DOT and rifles and muni upgrade is essentially a direct mirror. Why may I ask are you bothered by them retaining anit cache capability.

And is viable for like what, the first 5 minutes of the match?

Soviet clown car is viable for around the same time and guess what?
It can still inflict game changing damage/give massive advantage at start.
You aren't doing much SPio rushes by the mid game, expecting them to roll over whatever squad you come across, yet it works at start.
That's how shock units work, they hit the field, they hit you hard, you get a counter and their potential is diminished.

And I don't mind the trade off but the problem is that it also happens to be in 2 other doctrines as well and being an an Armor MG on tracks is certainly a big improvement compared to it's previous state but I still don't think it will be as useful in the long run if it can't reinforce while locked down as well.

It couldn't attack anything in any way.
It can now AND it can suppress under a circumstance.
Its also cheaper/affordable.
And you are still not happy.
No early game light vehicle below light tanks is useful in the long run and this one is not supposed to be replacement for 251, if you need reinforcement, get 251, not 250.

The original mirror then would have been giving storms anti cache. which doesn't bother me as its achieved by a different means, commandos having a demo makes sense as its a higher investment of MP for 3 men, so as they cant steal weapons they flank and cant fight unless in very favorable positions/cover it makes very good sense for them to retain the demo. Your suggestion of DOT and rifles and muni upgrade is essentially a direct mirror. Why may I ask are you bothered by them retaining anit cache capability.

Because it is based on the idea that the "grass is greener on the other side of the fence", which is actually a pretty bad concept, since the rest of the parameters are not the same.
In.C have enough DPS when they spawn to kill support weapons, and are an extremely useful unit once they reinforce. They are already superior to many infiltration units, and they simply do not need more utility.

If you ask me St.T should not even be the doctrine...

They are not receiving more utility, they would be retaining an originally intended one. The restriction was added later and becoming a good infiltration unit after reinforcement is a counter intuitive statement. They are excellent for one flank in perfect situations, but dropping even one model risks the entire unit. There is no grass is greener argument here, as its an ability they still poses that needs a current patch update. At such point though your opinion, I have mine but the balance team most importantly will do something with it to reach a solution.

Soviet clown car is viable for around the same time and guess what?
It can still inflict game changing damage/give massive advantage at start.
You aren't doing much SPio rushes by the mid game, expecting them to roll over whatever squad you come across, yet it works at start.
That's how shock units work, they hit the field, they hit you hard, you get a counter and their potential is diminished.


It couldn't attack anything in any way.
It can now AND it can suppress under a circumstance.
Its also cheaper/affordable.
And you are still not happy.
No early game light vehicle below light tanks is useful in the long run and this one is not supposed to be replacement for 251, if you need reinforcement, get 251, not 250.

The Kubelwagen was the OKW's only non-doc suppression platform, at least in the early game, something which you might be forgetting since you aren't seeing the bigger picture.

And the 250 is a doctrinal Halftrack, so I don't see a problem of giving it a little bit more utility in the form of the ability to reinforce when locked down.

And cut the crap about "being doctrinal doesn't mean it must be better", it's taking a commander slot in a 5 ability doctrine, it's supposed to be worth a damn.

They are not receiving more utility, they would be retaining an originally intended one. The restriction was added later and becoming a good infiltration unit after reinforcement is a counter intuitive statement. They are excellent for one flank in perfect situations, but dropping even one model risks the entire unit. There is no grass is greener argument here, as its an ability they still poses that needs a current patch update. At such point though your opinion, I have mine but the balance team most importantly will do something with it to reach a solution.

Commandos are not part of the revamped commanders, there is no reason to a buff a unit out scope that is already useful. The focus should be in the commander being revamped and not solving every problem in the game. The previous revamp patch also lost focus of the commander being revamped and end up with mediocre results and a revamped commander that now has to be revamped again.

In.C are also a separate case from the current implementation of St.T since they do not spawn with rifles.

I have little to add and you clearly entitled to have a different opinion.

Commandos are not part of the revamped commanders, there is no reason to a buff a unit out scope that is already useful. The focus should be in the commander being revamped and not solving every problem in the game. The previous revamp patch also lost focus of the commander being revamped and end up with mediocre results and a revamped commander that now has to be revamped again.

In.C are also a separate case from the current implementation of St.T since they do not spawn with rifles.

I have little to add and you clearly entitled to have a different opinion.

Stormtrooper changes are literally ment to mirror commandos, including commando-like stealth and powerful SMG.
Why are you crying about commandos demo claiming just because storms got flame nade commandos shouldnt be buffed because they would be too similar to Storms, but the whole point of Storm changes was to make them more like commandos since people enjoy their playstyle, thats literally what Jae for Jett said

Seriously dude, your mental gymnastics in this thread are on another level

Stormtrooper changes are literally ment to mirror commandos, including commando-like stealth and powerful SMG.
Why are you crying about commandos demo claiming just because storms got flame nade commandos shouldnt be buffed because they would be too similar to Storms, but the whole point of Storm changes was to make them more like commandos since people enjoy their playstyle, thats literally what Jae for Jett said

Seriously dude, your mental gymnastics in this thread are on another level

Dir kirrik pls try to provide useful feedback to Relic instead of commenting on my posting habits, this thread is about the revamped commanders and not me.

Inf.C are not part of revamped commanders and they actually perform good and do not need a buff.

St.T on the other hand in live perform poorly and bring little to the table in the patch. They perform rather mediocre as shock infiltration unit since they spawn with rifles and bring little to the table compared to "camo" Pgs.

If St.T are meant to "literally to mirror Inf.C" then do so making them a 3 men squad armed with smgs able to reinforce to five, able to equip 2 lmgs or 2 AT weapons and so on...currently that is not the case.

Dir kirrik pls try to provide useful feedback to Relic instead of commenting to my posting habits, this thread is about the revamped commanders and not me.

Inf.C are not part of revamped commanders and they actually perform good and do not need a buff. St.T on the other hand in live perform poorly and bring little to the table in the patch. They perform rather mediocre as shock infiltration unit since they spawn with rifles and bring little to the table compared to "camo" Pgs.

If St.T are meant to literally to mirror Inf.C then do so making them a 3 men squad armed with smgs able to reinforce to five and so on...currently that is not the case.

Ask balance team why they decided to make Storms break infiltration unit rules they themselves established during December patch last year. The point does not change however - current Storms are basically made after Commandos, making your entire argument about Commando change copying Stormtroopers pointless

45mm Anti-Tank Gun

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The 45mm ATG is good ability for the commander since it helps protect the HQ fuel investment from light vehicles rush and as such it should be focus in dealing with light vehicles. In it current implementation the unit is simply way too cost efficient and problematic.

Comments:
Ambush camouflage is good addition, on the other hand first strike bonuses are not necessary. The rakketen start getting them from vet 3 and there is little reason for M-42 to get the earlier. If it need to scale better they could be move to veterancy.

The ability to move while cloaked is bad since the unit can be used for scouting, it should actually be removed from all ATG.

The change in arc, rotation speed and horizontal trucking are all great and in the right direction since they help the unit deal with light vehicles. If first strike bonuses are removed a small increase in accuracy might be helpful.

The increase in far penetration is unnecessary especially with the first strike bonus penetration (I guess that is the third first bonus) since the unit has very good chance to penetrate the rear/side armor of PzIV even at max range.

The vet 1 ability (although I am not sure it is working properly) is over the top since it can probably negate the effect of smoke for free. Such power abilities are locked at higher tier in UKF for a reason and should not be available in 200 MP/2CP unit. One could replace by moving camouflage to vet 1 or some of the first strike bonuses.

The canister shot is simply problematic, being able to fire on hmg outside their range is simply wrong. In addition the ability is extremely good in destroying buildings and can be used to destroy enemy heavy cover with immunity. The ability is actually unnecessary for a unit that has the role of countering light vehicles but it it stays it should become timed with a munition cost and redesigned.

My suggestion would to increase damage to 100 so it can kill all light vehicles with 4 hits, move static camo to vet 1, reduce pop to 5 and keep the changes that help it vs light vehicles only.

Else the unit need to have its price increased.

Veterancy:
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One should have a look at the vet bonuses and maybe move some of the buffs (that the unit got) to veterancy bonuses. AT vet 3, first strike and max range the unit should currently have around 69% chance to penetrate a PzIV frontally, and 87% at range 30, with a reload of 1.46 Sec! allowing the unit to be very effective when spammed.

Actually no, Storm troopers (ST.T) get the anti caches because it increases the synergy with "close the pocket" ability.

If you want to compare infiltration Commandos (IC) with St.T you will see that there a number of difference since the spawn with K98s and not smgs.

St.T not only lack as a infiltration unit they also overlap with camo PG that have camo with first strike and can sprint.

For one thing, demos are 2 times as expensive as the stormtrooper flamenade, and for another thing, they’re practically useless in this patch. By at least allowing them to kill caches it’d give it one form of utility that really never should have been taken away. Letting a 3 man, .86 RA squad waltz up to your cache (in sight due to the vision provided by points) and plant a demo for like 10 seconds then you either are not paying attention at all and losing the cache makes sense, you’re unlucky and most likely will at least wipe his tiny squad retreating through the entire map in the midgame, or you’ll intervene beforehand and push off and maybe even wipe his commandos right there. Whereas all you need to do with stormtroopers is spawn them in and hold them in camo for 15 seconds (wow, what a concept) while they upgrade their mp40s for free and then run over and chuck a flamenade at the cache and let the mp40s do the rest. Stormtroopers are also much more likely to survive retreating through enemy lines as they come in at 4 men and have better RA than commandos.

Saying the new stormtroopers overlap with pgrens with ambush camo is a little silly for a couple reasons. First and foremost, having commando-type camo opens up wayyy more possibilities than ambush camouflage. There’s no way you could pull off the same things commandos (and now stormtroopers) can with ambush camo pgrens. In addition, they have mp40s instead of stgs which makes them a little better at ambushing IMO because they have better close range dps (better midrange dps on stgs is irrelevant if you close with the enemy in camo and engage them at minimum range as commandos do). Storms also get smokes and a different nade as well as tactical assault for wiping stuff on retreat better than pgrens could (not that pgrens are bad at that).