Feedback for Commander Revamppatch

Try a vet 3 sherman 76 with radio net III and combined arms it might change your mind.

Its not "sherman ace".
It needs somehow to get to vet3, which is rather rare occurrence for non T34/76 med tank.

+1 but Better have doctrinal mortar than none.

About the German infantry - don't see Tiger in that specific commander. Tigers were in german tank divisions and this doctrine should show the simple german infantry divisions, without any mechanic support, basic mainline infantry (5 men squads fits perfectly). I would see more indirect support like the ISG but the more powerful kinda like the old one before few patches ago OR panzerbushe AT package to fight light vehicule rushes (although it could be too much ammo intensive then).

Tiger is already common in many good commanders so don't see need to put him here.

Hmmmmm, maybe a LeIG would indeed make more sense, the point of the tiger was to have something manpower and fuel related compared to something ammo based or ammo heavy like the officer since the doctrine already provides a lot of ammo based options.

UKF does have one 'mobile' indirect fire tool: the Base Howitzers. Maybe a cheap, rapid light barrage added to Section Flares would go a long way to helping out? Or a free smoke barrage for displacing MGs? All sharing the global cooldown, of course.

You have a point however, I think everybody that is actively playing UKF would rather appreciate something 'mobile' as you say that can work without the use of another unit, as in independently.

You won't always have a pyrotechnic IS around and I still notice people preferring to go med kits instead, now with the added HEAT grenades to sappers it makes little sense to go IS heavy or not just replace them with sappers when needed, meaning that your left even without that little indirect fire support, and building a mortar pit is a big no-no for me and many others simply because it's ineffective, big, expensive and static, and cannot properly defend itself which means you need to invest even more time and resources in defending it and micro to get your investment's worth out of it, which again, just doesn't calculate too well at the end of the day.

Its not "sherman ace".
It needs somehow to get to vet3, which is rather rare occurrence for non T34/76 med tank.

It get to vet 3 quite often. In addition the argument makes no sense. A unit should be balanced at all vet level not just vet 0.

It get to vet 3 quite often. In addition the argument makes no sense. A unit should be balanced at all vet level not just vet 0.

Yes.

And can you guess what we call units that don't perform at vet0 compared to stock alternatives?
M4C doesn't have a place in USF roster, regardless of vet bonuses it might or might not achieve and even then, it should perform accordingly to make it appealing over stock M4.

It is a nice alternative for T34, but not M4.
EZ8 would be a much better choice then trying to make M4C appealing.

You have a point however, I think everybody that is actively playing UKF would rather appreciate something 'mobile' as you say that can work without the use of another unit, as in independently.

I'm more thinking what we could actually get. A nondoctrinal indirect-fire weapon team for UKF has been pretty much ruled out, but reworking the Pyrotechnic Section is something that might be able to happen.

Yes.

And can you guess what we call units that don't perform at vet0 compared to stock alternatives?
M4C doesn't have a place in USF roster, regardless of vet bonuses it might or might not achieve and even then, it should perform accordingly to make it appealing over stock M4.

It is a nice alternative for T34, but not M4.
EZ8 would be a much better choice then trying to make M4C appealing.

Having a tanks main gun firing bellow 2 secs is simply broken, and it needs fixing, regardless of your theories. Unless you want to argue that it should be able to fire that fast, I suggest you move on.

If you have a suggestions to replace M4C with another unit pls make it but pls stop derailing the thread arguing for the sake of arguing. It is my opinion that if M4C stays it needs fixing.

Swapping the 76mm for the Easy8 would certainly make that commander more attractive to use.

I'm more thinking what we could actually get. A nondoctrinal indirect-fire weapon team for UKF has been pretty much ruled out, but reworking the Pyrotechnic Section is something that might be able to happen.

I was actually thinking about something like the Counter-battery ability from the Advanced Emplacements Regiment, due to the points I already put forth, they would work independently from one another as well as from the IS, the pyrotechnics then can be replaced by let's say, a Recon section upgrade for example.

UKF does have one 'mobile' indirect fire tool: the Base Howitzers. Maybe a cheap, rapid light barrage added to Section Flares would go a long way to helping out? Or a free smoke barrage for displacing MGs? All sharing the global cooldown, of course.

Another thing that would make pyrotechnics a lot better is making it so they could throw it a little further (especially the sniper). Having a tool to displace fortifications is a lot less useful when you have to walk halfway into said fortifications to activate it, and the sniper is too squishy and valuable to be throwing flares around well within small arms range.

In the interest of a cheaper light barrage, the pyrotechnics ability is already damn cheap, so maybe a couple of semi precise offmap mortar shells with a small blast radius for like 30 muni or something? Or maybe one precision shell from the 25 pdrs. It could be one from each, so it could scale into the lategame better, or just 1 period. Love the smoke idea.

Free smoke (with a green flare) and maybe halved shell count, halved cost?

Stormtrooper initial spawn number need to be reduced to 3, same as infiltration commandos

Having 4 of them spawn from the building is like fighting 5 man commando squad right off the bat, and these guys are superior to commandos in every way now

Swapping the 76mm for the Easy8 would certainly make that commander more attractive to use.

After playing a couple of USF games I have reached to the same conclusion, the 76mm Shermans with Radio Net, Combined Arms, and the 5% faster reload bulletin it becomes a machine gun, not even kidding.

So if they reduce the reload they need to somehow compensate it as to keep it effective but not as OP but then again, not make it even worse than the regular Sherman.

If not then replacing it with the E8 would be the next best thing probably.

So continuing with Mech Company:

Raid Tactics and Redraw and Refit I did not even use once, so for me at least, they're pretty useless.

The WC51 and M3 Halftrack - the WC51 comes a tad late, at least later than it would if it was a call-in and it fights with the Riflemen in the production queue early in game, so it's really not in a good spot right now.

The M3 on the otherhand is a bit overlapping with the Ambulance, the whole point was to have a combat group of it together with Cav Rifles, CQC specialists for which I still vouch for.

And lastly we come to Combined Arms, I fucking love this ability and I cannot lie, it with the M3 Cav Rifle combat group were my favorite parts of Baker Company in the Ardennes Assault campaign so I cannot express my thankfulness to the community dev team for including this ability here, it honestly just warms my heart and it feels right at home, it's basically what the commander is supposed to be all about.

My suggestions are:

Replace Raid tactics with either the M8 Greyhound or M21 Mortar HT.

Redraw and refit is replaced by either the WC51 to become a call-in unit once again or the M3 Halftrack with Cav rifles.

Probably a tad manpower and fuel heavy but at least you have a lot of options presented to you.

Armor Company -

Assault Engineers still feel lackluster to me and I still think that they should get a 5th man by default, as well as the ability to build tank traps, at least using them as a replacement for the RE should be an option if not for anything else.

Elite Crews still feel mostly useless, my crews stay mostly in their tanks and that 70 ammo upgrade isn't looking too worthwhile, the repair rate boost is nice and all but again, not for 70 ammo, add 5 more to that and I can get their tank a .50 cal instead for example. Perhaps if the ability gave them more utility, like the ability to build, get a 5th man, Idk but something, something more impactful, something more meaningful, something worth the upgrade's price or whatever.

If not I would just straight up replace it with again, something like the M8 or I don't know.

The M10 I did not even try out, but I really like sakismondeo's suggestion (in his topic) of it gaining the CoH Hellcat's camo ability.

The M4 105 Sherman I absolutely love, it's a beast now, I only wish it could fire like the M8 Scott/KV-2 over obstacles by default but even without it it's a big improvement, good job with it.

I think M10s are a tad overpriced. Way back when they were call-ins the cost was understandable, because you didn't have to invest in teching to get them. If I recall correctly, it costed 270/80 on Western Front Armies release, before it was changed later on. Maybe set it back to that or maybe 280/80?

I've had an opportunity to play a few more matches with the Mechanized Company and come up with some feedback for that commander. Overall it feels like it has more of a theme and a purpose than the Armor Company commander, and in its current state, I definitely prefer it.

Mechanized Company

Mortar Halftrack - Removed: I like the mortar halftrack. I don't know how well it fits with this commander because 1-2 mortar halftracks plus a regular M3 halftrack may be too much to invest in light vehicles. Especially considering their life expectancy. However light vehicle options seem to be the theme for this commander, so perhaps it should stay.

WC-51: This is another unit that I really like, but it feels a little weird in it's current form. One of the things I struggle with the most as the Americans in the current patch is MG spam. Especially on maps with lots of choke points. I had limited success using the WC-51 to flank MG's and in general level the playing field in the first 2-3 minutes of the game.

However, I'm not completely satisfied with it's performance. In order for it to be useful for anything prior to being able to upgrade the MG, you need to put a squad in it. I suppose RE could be used, but you have to sit and wait so long for them to do any amount of damage that you risk losing the truck. Putting a rifle squad in it is also an option, but now you've got 480mp devoted to a single unit right out of the gate. One micro mistake could easily spell disaster.

I think this unit could use some additional tuning.

Refit and Refuel: I never liked this ability to begin with, and I like it even less now. It is entirely counter-intuitive to the nature of the game. The idea is to preserve your units as long as possible, that's the whole point of providing veterancy and useful abilities to even the most basic units. I understand the idea behind the ability, but in practice it's not very good. The idea seems to be to get a partial refund for vehicles that have outlasted their usefulness. The only vehicle that I can think of this being applicable to would be the WC-51, but even it has been granted abilities that are extremely useful later in the game. Even if you do withdraw it, you get a refund of 150mp. Hardly worth an entire commander ability.

The M3 halftrack allows you to reinforce your units once it's no longer useful as the bazooka bus. It could also be used to back cap with a squad in it.

I would recommend this commander ability be replaced with something else entirely.

Combined Arms: I think this makes a nice addition to the commander. It's one of the only global abilities that I actually enjoy using. With that said, I think there are unintended consequences of combining this with the current iteration of the Sherman 76mm.

76mm Sherman: I like this unit. I also like the regular Sherman. The ability to upgrade the regular Sherman that is attached to this ability is confusing. Without knowing exactly what stats a bulldozer actually changes for the regular Sherman, I'm not sure why I would want to build a regular Sherman and upgrade it instead of just building a 76mm.

Maybe this could be moved to the Armor Company commander and then that commander could be renamed Bulldozer Company

Seriously though, the elephant in the room is that this unit is quite possibly broken. As soon as people figure out that this thing is a 76mm machine gun, I can see it being abused. With even just 1 rank of veterancy and a halftrack with an infantry unit inside of it nearby, things can get wild really fast with combined arms running.

Because of this, I think this unit needs additional tuning or to be replaced, unfortunately. I hesitate to recommend that because I do like the unit otherwise. Dropping the Easy 8 in here would be the quick fix.

Raid Tactics: I do not like this ability for the USF. As others have pointed out, you will very likely have a squad of infantry inside one of your light vehicles. Especially with this commander. There are very few exceptions to this, and not enough to make this worth an ability slot on a commander.

M3 Halftrack: This is another unit that I really like that has a bizarre quirk. I would actually prefer a regular vehicle crew and an empty halftrack instead of Assault Engineers for one simple reason. When you disembark the vehicle with Assault Engineers, they do not start automatically repairing the vehicle. How is it even possible to use the Assault Engineers unless you swap them with RE? The same RE that you will have very likely given bazookas at this point. I think either put a regular vehicle crew back in and leave the ability otherwise unchanged, or put a regular vehicle crew in and add Assault Engineers to the back of the vehicle. I think that's how it used to work anyways.

Final thoughts

I really like the idea of allowing the M3 and WC-51 to be built in the barracks after this commander has been selected. As someone else pointed out, the WC-51 kind of jams up the production queue, but it's not the end of the world.

I'd like to see Raid and Withdraw replaced with other abilities. Possibly by bringing back the Mortar Halftrack or the 155mm artillery barrage. I think the 76mm Sherman needs some kind of adjustment to prevent abuse. I'm confused by the bizarre quirks of the M3 and the standard Sherman in this commander.

I've had an opportunity to play a few more matches with the Mechanized Company and come up with some feedback for that commander. Overall it feels like it has more of a theme and a purpose than the Armor Company commander, and in its current state, I definitely prefer it.

Mechanized Company

Mortar Halftrack - Removed: I like the mortar halftrack. I don't know how well it fits with this commander because 1-2 mortar halftracks plus a regular M3 halftrack may be too much to invest in light vehicles. Especially considering their life expectancy. However light vehicle options seem to be the theme for this commander, so perhaps it should stay.

WC-51: This is another unit that I really like, but it feels a little weird in it's current form. One of the things I struggle with the most as the Americans in the current patch is MG spam. Especially on maps with lots of choke points. I had limited success using the WC-51 to flank MG's and in general level the playing field in the first 2-3 minutes of the game.

However, I'm not completely satisfied with it's performance. In order for it to be useful for anything prior to being able to upgrade the MG, you need to put a squad in it. I suppose RE could be used, but you have to sit and wait so long for them to do any amount of damage that you risk losing the truck. Putting a rifle squad in it is also an option, but now you've got 480mp devoted to a single unit right out of the gate. One micro mistake could easily spell disaster.

I think this unit could use some additional tuning.

Refit and Refuel: I never liked this ability to begin with, and I like it even less now. It is entirely counter-intuitive to the nature of the game. The idea is to preserve your units as long as possible, that's the whole point of providing veterancy and useful abilities to even the most basic units. I understand the idea behind the ability, but in practice it's not very good. The idea seems to be to get a partial refund for vehicles that have outlasted their usefulness. The only vehicle that I can think of this being applicable to would be the WC-51, but even it has been granted abilities that are extremely useful later in the game. Even if you do withdraw it, you get a refund of 150mp. Hardly worth an entire commander ability.

The M3 halftrack allows you to reinforce your units once it's no longer useful as the bazooka bus. It could also be used to back cap with a squad in it.

I would recommend this commander ability be replaced with something else entirely.

Combined Arms: I think this makes a nice addition to the commander. It's one of the only global abilities that I actually enjoy using. With that said, I think there are unintended consequences of combining this with the current iteration of the Sherman 76mm.

76mm Sherman: I like this unit. I also like the regular Sherman. The ability to upgrade the regular Sherman that is attached to this ability is confusing. Without knowing exactly what stats a bulldozer actually changes for the regular Sherman, I'm not sure why I would want to build a regular Sherman and upgrade it instead of just building a 76mm.

Maybe this could be moved to the Armor Company commander and then that commander could be renamed Bulldozer Company

Seriously though, the elephant in the room is that this unit is quite possibly broken. As soon as people figure out that this thing is a 76mm machine gun, I can see it being abused. With even just 1 rank of veterancy and a halftrack with an infantry unit inside of it nearby, things can get wild really fast with combined arms running.

Because of this, I think this unit needs additional tuning or to be replaced, unfortunately. I hesitate to recommend that because I do like the unit otherwise. Dropping the Easy 8 in here would be the quick fix.

Raid Tactics: I do not like this ability for the USF. As others have pointed out, you will very likely have a squad of infantry inside one of your light vehicles. Especially with this commander. There are very few exceptions to this, and not enough to make this worth an ability slot on a commander.

M3 Halftrack: This is another unit that I really like that has a bizarre quirk. I would actually prefer a regular vehicle crew and an empty halftrack instead of Assault Engineers for one simple reason. When you disembark the vehicle with Assault Engineers, they do not start automatically repairing the vehicle. How is it even possible to use the Assault Engineers unless you swap them with RE? The same RE that you will have very likely given bazookas at this point. I think either put a regular vehicle crew back in and leave the ability otherwise unchanged, or put a regular vehicle crew in and add Assault Engineers to the back of the vehicle. I think that's how it used to work anyways.

Final thoughts

I really like the idea of allowing the M3 and WC-51 to be built in the barracks after this commander has been selected. As someone else pointed out, the WC-51 kind of jams up the production queue, but it's not the end of the world.

I'd like to see Raid and Withdraw replaced with other abilities. Possibly by bringing back the Mortar Halftrack or the 155mm artillery barrage. I think the 76mm Sherman needs some kind of adjustment to prevent abuse. I'm confused by the bizarre quirks of the M3 and the standard Sherman in this commander.

I actually have an idea on how to keep the mortar HT, just make it an upgrade for the regular M3 HT.

I actually have an idea on how to keep the mortar HT, just make it an upgrade for the regular M3 HT.

The current implementation of Refit and Refuel is a bit weird. One does not have information of what he is getting back for refitting a unit and the ability can be exploited.

I would suggest a redesign so instead of resources one could get a higher vehicle (maybe with a crew of half XP?). For instance WC-51 can be refitted for a M3, M3 can be refitted for M-21 MHT (or even M-20 to greyhound).

Now one can invest in little vehicles that progressively get better and have access to all vehicles without using any other slots.

The current implementation of Refit and Refuel is a bit weird. One does not have information of what he is getting back for refitting a unit and the ability can be exploited.

I would suggest a redesign so instead of resources one could get a higher vehicle (maybe with a crew of half XP?). For instance WC-51 can be refitted for a M3, M3 can be refitted for M-21 MHT (or even M-20 to greyhound).

Now one can invest in little vehicles that progressively get better and have access to all vehicles without using any other slots.

It is wierd

imagine for a new player that implementation of "higher vehicule" could be confusing as well. Where would it be a description (i mean you would have to write down every possible scenerio)- plus what about a abandone tanks? Sounds good but it could end up really confusing for a players.

But it's common in this game that stats and values are hidden from a player...

It is wierd

imagine for a new player that implementation of "higher vehicule" could be confusing as well. Where would it be a description (i mean you would have to write down every possible scenerio)- plus what about a abandone tanks? Sounds good but it could end up really confusing for a players.

But it's common in this game that stats and values are hidden from a player...

What I actually suggested, involved moving the ability from the commander to the vehicle.

For instance the WC would have button providing the info about the cost of swapping it for an M-3.

The ability would be easier to understand and better balanced, at least in imo.

The current implementation of Refit and Refuel is a bit weird. One does not have information of what he is getting back for refitting a unit and the ability can be exploited.

I would suggest a redesign so instead of resources one could get a higher vehicle (maybe with a crew of half XP?). For instance WC-51 can be refitted for a M3, M3 can be refitted for M-21 MHT (or even M-20 to greyhound).

Now one can invest in little vehicles that progressively get better and have access to all vehicles without using any other slots.

Hmmm, that is a nice idea, but info needs to be layed out exactly so you know what you're getting.

And maybe a mix of manpower, fuel and experience would be the best way to balance this. I agree.

The current implementation of Refit and Refuel is a bit weird. One does not have information of what he is getting back for refitting a unit and the ability can be exploited.

I would suggest a redesign so instead of resources one could get a higher vehicle (maybe with a crew of half XP?). For instance WC-51 can be refitted for a M3, M3 can be refitted for M-21 MHT (or even M-20 to greyhound).

Now one can invest in little vehicles that progressively get better and have access to all vehicles without using any other slots.

If you follow the vehicle to the edge of the map the amount of resources returned very briefly shows up like an XP counter when your units kill something.

I imagine that you get the resources once the unit safely arrives off the map rather than instantly. If not, this is definitely prone to abuse as well.

Something else to take into consideration is that I don't believe I got any munitions back for recalling my WC-51 that was Vet 2 and upgraded. Just appeared to be 150mp.

I'm not crazy about the idea of upgrading the M3 to a M-21. If I built the M3 in the first place, it was likely because I wanted a rolling reinforcement point or transportation for units (typically units with bazookas). The M-21 on the other hand serves a completely different purpose. If I wanted a M-21 in the first place, I would be really annoyed with having to upgrade the M3 to get it.

At this point, I think the best way forward to make this commander more attractive is outright replacing the two abilities that are real juicy. There is a good foundation here (unlike Armor Company) but it's missing something that rounds it out.

Perhaps if Assault Engineers are buffed to make them worthwhile, they could outright replace one of the current abilities in this doctrine. Two birds with one stone there, a good solid unit for Armor Company and Mechanized Company, and they fit the theme of both of them exceptionally well.

I want to look at Assault Engineers the way I look at I&R Pathfinders, Rangers, Paratroopers, etc. Those are awesome units that add real value to a doctrine. I really think they should be roughly on par with Sturmpioneers considering the cost is the same, their intended purpose is pretty much the same, even the name is similar.

Edit: Just wanted to be clear about what I'm advocating in this post. Remove withdraw and refit from the doctrine entirely. Add Assault Engineers in it's place. Replace Assault Engineers with standard Vehicle Crew in the M3 halftrack. It only makes sense to do it this way so that the M3 ability works more seamlessly, and you get real access to the Assault Engineers that were intended to be in this doctrine from the get go. This of course hinges on the Assault Engineers being tuned to become a truly desirable unit worth the asking price.