WEHRMACHT COMMANDER REVAMP DISCUSSION

Please use this thread to discuss or submit ideas for the Wehrmacht Commander Revamp
If you want to submit a full proposal, here are a few guidelines.

• Please choose commanders that you feel can realistically become competitive with a few good changes. Some commanders are probably beyond redemption at this point.
  
• Reminder that all proposed changes, must be preexisting units or abilities currently in the live game.
  
• Suggested changes should not detract from the commanders given theme.
  
• Please provide the rationale behind your proposed changes, and how they will improve said commander.
  
• Where applicable, provide costs, CP values, or other details regarding particular change(s)
  

We’re aiming to revamp two commanders per faction. In some instances, the same commanders are going to see a lot of similar ideas. In that case, maybe skip adding another full proposal, and instead get involved in the conversation about how best to make said commander work.

Eilte Trooper Tiger ACE reduce penalty income

The two I would like to see redone would be Mechanized and Encirclement

German Mechanized
This commander should be focused on lighter vehicles and tanks. The Lefh 18 is a bit out of place to a mech doctrine. Here is my suggestion:

0 CP: 250 Halftrack Call in (could affect the mortar halftrack and/or Mechinzed assault)
-200 manpower ish (some stat changes may be needed)
-Able to be upgraded with a mortar for 150 Manpower (does not have incendiary rounds, loses hold ability)
-Or able to hold mortar squads outright

0 CP: Panzer 4 F1 call in
-Requires Battle Phase 2
-Stats adjusted to more closely match a T34 in vs Armor
-300 Manpower, 90 Fuel
-Uses Armor Reserves voice line

2 CP: Regal AT Mines (Affects all doctrines)
-Able to laid by 250s, 222s as well
-Cause heavy engine damage instead of immobile.
-Damage reduced to 240 from 400
-Cost reduced to 30 from 50

4 CP: Spotting scopes (or was it 5 CP, I forget)

4 CP: Vehicle Breakthrough
-Cost changed from 50 fuel to 50 Munitions


Encirclement
In live this doctrine is too map dependent and too munitions heavy.

0 CP: (Passive) Encirclement
-Enemies in cut off sectors will have flares fired over head

2 CP: Stormtroopers
In live these guys are too heavy in munitions to be effective and too similar to Grens and Pgrens. I would like their stock value increased while being unique.
-5 Man squad (same states)
-Bundle Grenade replaced with grenade assault or with a Cooked Stick Grenade
-Call in cost increased from 340 to 360
-Only able to be upgraded with PzB 39s (roughly equal to ptrs or boys AT)
-Vet 1 Ability is replaced with Tactical Assault
-Has a Sprint Ability

4 CP: Supply Break
-Strong enough to destroy cashes
-Cost reduced to 50 munitions?

8 CP: Light Arty Barrage

10 CP: Command Panther
-Roughly equal to the OKW Command Panther
-Uses Command Panther Call in Voice lines

Hello again, I'll be going by the same statistics as last time for the top 2 commanders chosen by the community for a revamp.

First off is the Community Defensive Commander.

Now I think that the Tank Traps alone filling an entire commander slot is too much and is better off being combined with the Entrenching tools, making the ability "Defensive Tools" to generalize it's idea more.

Now with that in mind this new slot will need to be filled with something else, I've thought about a lot of units most of all which would fit in a defensive oriented commander and I've found no other good ideas besides the Elefant, Commander Panzer IV and Osttruppen, now there would be a bit of an Overlap with the Pak 43 here because they have the same jobs, and the Commander Panzer IV would make hulled down tanks an even bigger problem for the enemy however it's already featured in the Festung Panzer Doctrine alongside the Elefant, so the only real choice is the Osttruppen which can be spammed to make trenches and garrison them, effectively making them cheap infantry to man the line with without having the support of their own doctrine such as the Artillery Officer and Supply drop, forcing you to tech up instead of just relying on them to entirely man the line by themselves.

I imagine this commander being really just inspired by the Soviet Campaign Osttruppen who defended Stalingrad from the Soviet forces there.

German Infantry Doctrine:

This involves an ability called "Relief Infantry" which is counter-intuitive in my opinion because it encourages you to basically sacrifice your infantry for ammunition in order to get a return of 2 Osttruppen squads at the most, in a game all about unit preservation. It's better for this ability to be straight up replaced with Osttruppen as a direct approach, if you want them you can have them, for a manpower price of course, no need to sacrifice your infantry in order to get them anymore.

Apart from that I think that the 7,5mm LeIG barrage ability can be replaced by the Jaeger Light Infantry upgrade to again, bolster your infantry effectiveness because currently I think it overlaps a tad too much with the Fragmentation Bombs, similarly to the Jaeger Infantry Doctrine.

Alternatively there are other options to replace it with like camouflage or the model 24 stun grenades.

That's about it, I would also like to suggest a few more small commander related things:

250 Halftrack - Needs to either receive veterancy from nearby units and be able to reinforce or get an MG and be able to reinforce again because without infantry in it's hold it's just useless, but even for a 30 fuel and however much manpower taxi it's still underwhelming and you're better off just teching to either get the Grens or PGs.

Osttruppen - Need a Panzerbusche 39 AT rifle package upgrade, Panzerfausts are not usable inside structures which hinders the Osttruppens' garrisoned natured. Panzerfausts of course can be locked out after the research to the AT rifle package is complete, I think it's a fair trade instead of having a Panzerfaust and MG42 for 2 AT rifles.

Cheers.

My opinion of german infantry doctrine is to make i support your mainline infantry units with upgrades or supportive units. One of them could be new weapon upgrade for grenadiers alongside the old g 43 upgrade or assault grens as they could give synergy with normal grens, but as they scale quite poorly to lategame, i had idea for them to be able to upgrade equipment pack that gives them stolen shock troops armour and 3 ppsh. this way they could be used later on, rather than being just waste of popcap, but it needs to be locked to either tier 2 or 3 unlock.

Second would be to give either stug e or stubby pnz 4, which would strenghten the idea of supporting your infantry.

I will also speak sometime about new Units which are ingame but not used… easy to make.

Mechanized-Doctrine don't need much love, only one thing is useless...
We can pimp the Mechanized Grenadier, by changing the 250 to a special version of 251 e.g. without roof so it can be used as battle-platform and put e.g. assault Grenadiere in it. Removing the Flamme-Upgrade.


Osttruppen-Commander is still crap, the guy how changed it was a bungler. Revamp:
-Osttruppen
-Artillerieoffizier
-Supply-Drop
-Beutepanzer T34 (captured T34)
-Eisenhabgeschütz (Railway-Artillery)
x Osttruppen don't need a LMG42, it simply looks stupid and the sounds are annoying. Give them a Panzerbüchse 39 instead, a damage nerfed version of PTRS. Also give them the ability to build sand-bags and wire without the trench-ability (so we can finally remove that useless thing) Also Relief-Osttruppen getting a buff with that. Maybe remove the bunker for them instead, so you need pios or grens.
x The PaK40 simply don't fit for the supply-drop. Take the Soviet "45mm M1937", make a new skin and call it "4,2cm leichte PaK41" (they nearly looking the same). This thing was really droped by Aircraft and would fit better with MG34 and Osttruppen.
x Instead of trenches give them a Beute T34. That allowes the tactic to scip T2 and T3. So the support-drop also gets a real reason.
That's a real Osttruppen-Commander you don't lough about.


Community-Defense also need a change.
- Riegelmine
- Barricades (instead of the czech hedgehog) dreagon-teeth for OKW
- hull-down
- PaK43
- Sektor-Artillerie
x Riegelmine would fit perfect for the Commander.
x Barricades are simply cosmetics, because they are looking more improvisd, Fitting better to Ostheer with hull-down. So every fraction gets their own blue-print.

German-Infatry on paper it is a good commander, but it Needs too much mun you will never get.

- Artillerieoffizier
- Relief-Osttruppen (they get buffed by the Osttruppen-revamp -> Looking Overhead to Osttruppen-Commander)
- Tactical-Movement
- redistribute-ressources 50 fuel to 100 mun.
- leIG18-support
x Maybe removing the fragmention-bombs and put in the old redistribute-ressources abilit instead. This is the only commander that can really handle this ability. It is called German-Infantry, so for what the fuel?

Wrote it somewhere else already.

Community defense doctrine:

Replace the Pak 43 with a regular Hetzer (model already exists).

The Hetzer fits a defensive setting. It would differ from the StuG by having 60 range and being a little bit more expensive. This would help to offset the lack of a 60 range td for Ostheer.

German infantry need infantry focus

0cp-Assault gren
2cp Arty officer
4cp tactical movement
8cp Lef 18
10cp frag bomb

Festung armor doctrine

replace pak 43 or command panzer with tiger

The top two votes for Ostheer in the poll I ran were Community Defensive and German Infantry.

Community Defensive is there for 4v4 compstompers to have fun with. I'm not confident you could turn it competitive without rebuilding from scratch unless you're after Ostheer Sim City. And I don't think anyone wants Ostheer Sim City in high level automatch.

German Infantry Doctrine however is an excellent choice because it has two weak abilities with very high overlap: Relief Infantry and Tactical Movement.

As for how I'd recommend improving them? Remove them entirely like DBP did with Hit The Dirt.

DBP removed Hit The Dirt, and put the KV-1 into its place, substantially improving former Hit The Dirt doctrines. If you ditch Relief Infantry and Tactical Movement you can do the same for three underused Ostheer doctrines and one arguably okay Ostheer doctrine.

My personal suggestions for how to fill these holes:

• Blitzkreig (One empty slot): The Encirclement ability would be a good fit.

• Festung Support (One empty slot): Recon Overflight seems like the best fit: it's got three artillery abilities (Mortar HT, LeFH, Sector Artillery) in it.

• German Infantry (Two empty Slots): StuG E. It's a light artillery supporting infantry doctrine so the StuG E fits the theme nicely. For the second ability, either G43 Rifles or Ostruppen Reserves from Mobile Defence.

• Lightning War (Two empty slots): Smoke Pots and Assault Grenadiers. Smoke Pots can preserve the Tiger without being as powerful as Panzer Tactician, and they synergise nicely with the Assault Grenadiers.
  

maybe make German Infantry Doctrine unique with something like this



infantry for infantry doctrine ^^

I think Festung Armor would be a good candidate for rework, because of its excessive similarity (and inferiority) to Fortified Armor.

0 Forward Repair HQ
0 Hetzer (antitank, built from T4 as better StuG)
8 PaK 43
9 Breakthrough
12 Rail Artillery


The other that I believe needs a rework is German Infantry Doctrine.

2 Artillery Officer
2 Defensive Fortifications (now comes with hidden s-mines and a pioneer repair upgrade, affects Defensive Doctrine as well)
3 Observation (timed ability that increases sight of infantry)
4 Replacements (unlocks 30mp upgrade for 5th man in grenadier squad. The new member uses a mediocre short-range weapon, like a looted ppsh-41)
10 Frag Bombs

*German Infantry Doctrine



1 - Artillery Field Officer
An Artillery Field Officer specializing in supporting troops is allocated to your command.

1 - (PASSIVE) Ambush Camouflage
Grenadiers, Panzer Grenadiers and MG42s can be upgraded with better camouflage, concealing them in cover and deep snow.

3 - (PASSIVE) Infantry Reserve
Command releases reserve infantry, the Grenadiers squad size is now increased.

4 - Tactical Movement
All infantry are ordered to move at their fastest available speed for the duration of the ability. Does not affect anti-tank gun squads.

10 - Veteran StuG III Ausf. G Assault Gun
Allows the requisition of the veteran StuG III Ausf. G Assault Gun onto the battlefield. Strong vs infantry and vehicles. This tank is equipped with MG, side armor, spotting scope and the Panzer Tactician Smoke.

10 - Veteran StuG III Ausf. G Assault Gun

please let stug ace be a thing

Defensive Doctrine



1 - (PASSIVE) Advanced Warning
Increases the visual range of all captured points, revealing more of the surrounding territory.

2 - (PASSIVE) Defensive Fortifications
Pioneers can dig Covered Trenches and construct Concrete Bunkers.

5 - (PASSIVE) Hull Down
Pioneers, Grenadiers and Panzer Grenadiers are able to set German armor in an immobile Hull Down position, increasing defenses and damage.

6 - AT 'Hetzer'
Allows the requisition of the Hetzer Tank Destroyer to the battlefield. Effective against armor at medium range.

12 - Sector Artillery
Any enemy units entering a targeted sector are barraged with 10.5cm artillery.

My suggestion for the German infantry commander:
This commander has to many abilities, which works with ammo, so cancel the little arty barage and give him a stug e or a panzer IV F1 .
This is a early war commander and in 1941 the stug e was only for infantry support and not for td. And some goes for panzer IV F1.
Then this commander would be a perfect mix between call in and ammo use

...

Is there gonna be a pool to pick the revamping commanders?


Ok, so starting from a begging.

Revamp is to make old weak commanders more atractive but not overpowered. Redesign commander also cannot have all type of abilities inside - strafe, arty, call in infantry and tank, upgrades for basic infantry units (like guard rifle). Problematic can be the fact that revamp commander may not be used becouse old meta commanders will be still better, worth getting (for example mobile defense). I think in order to make that revamp worthy it's effort current meta commanders should be also balance.
And to replay all other people texting here. No, adding the resources transformations or a vetted call in squads won't work. There was a reason why it was REMOVED for a game (elite training i a Elite Troops, fuel-ammo switch in CAS). Don't make opieOP commanders.

I will only speak about the three commanders - two picked by the pool: infantry doctrine and defensive community doctrine and my personal favour elite troops.

The biggest issue with the design of a commander is to make abilities to not overlap with better versions of it. As much as for Brits, okw or USF it's easier to make more unique commanders then for basic vanilla coh2 factions it's almost impossible. There is just too many commanders.

To make a revamp worthy we should add as many new, unique, fresh abilites as we can - and take as much as we can from a new units mod from my SneakyEye. Of course with a warning that it cannot end up like British emplacement commander (opieOP at the release and dead to the ground currently).

1. Defensive Doctrine
Problem here is that all defensive abilities can be mix in 1 big slot (trench, defesive fortification). Even mix in 1 it will be weaker than okw counterpart. Therefore i needs something fresh -> concrete bunkers with there new abilities - repair station.
Hull down - should be removed. Again it overlaps with other commanders. After revamp why would i go jeager armor or others?
Same story with pak43. There is just too many commadners currently with p43, could be replace for a better good (unit itself should have form closer to a 17p emplacemnt).
Sector artylery should be change to something close to zeroing artylery. Ability associated with a territory sectors is too connected to map design. Should have a circle range. if it possible would be interesting to add a panzerwerfer call in barrage from outside of a map.

With what replace those abilities.

Hull down -> new sturmpio squad for ostheer - demolishion squad (look all units mod).

Pak43 -> as emplacemant or add a forward HQ.

Defensive fortifications and trench -> merged in 1 slot with trench, defesive fortification and add shue mines and concrete bunkers (with upgrades for mg/repair station or medics)

Sector arty -> zeroing artillery or similar

2. infantry doctrine
Thing is that all of those abilities are already in other commanders that are way better design. Who will get this commander for a artillery field officer, fragmentation bombs or relief infantry if they are already in doctrines like: Assault or Ostroopen with better artillery and call in tanks. This commander is base on german infantry play therefore there shouldn't be any call in tanks

So from the begging:
1. Artillery Field Officer - this unit is in 3 other commanders: ostroopen, assault support and join operations. It's a lot. This unit was recently rebalance and it's quite good. Could stay or to make it more atractive replace it with assult grens or lustwaffe field officer (with same stats but just diffrent abilities).
2. Tactical movements - i has to go or be merged with new added ability.
3. Relief infantry - That has to go. It's available in way to many commanders and it's rarely, rarely used mostly by people who blobs.
4. light artillery barrage - german infantry divisions were heavily based on artillery in any form. Call in arty for Le.IG ISG suits with this doctrine. Sadly it overlaps with artillery field officer mortar call in ability.
5. fragmentation bombs - Again, it's already exists in better commander. Decent ability but it should be replaced.

Generally speaking this combination of abilities is just to weak, too ammo heavy and all abilities exists in better combinations.

My personal idea is to add what many people asked for:
1. Artillery field Officer/Assault Gren.
2. Bulster ability - German infantry divisions in Russia wasn't as numberous as soviets but there was still millions of soldiers there. Mid game ability - add extra model for grens and pio squads - to no make it too abusive make it as an uprade for each squad costing ammo and man power. Replace with relief infantry.
3. Opel blitz - truck will have ability to reinforce and heal nearbly units - like USF ambulance.
4. PANZER BUSHE AT PACKAGE for grens - it will replace Light artyillery barrage. Allow gren infantry to fight effectivly with light vehicules - PTRS stats copy. It will give a space for a "skip t2" tactics.
5. heavy artillery LEFH call in barrage -> OKW Jeager commander call in artillery - in place for a fragmentation bombs.

I also liked the idea of adding a call in LE.iG ISG but with there current stats and without any unique abilities it won't be an interesting options to replace normal mortar.

3. ELITE TROOPS

This gonna be short. Tiger ace with his current price and resources reduction doesn't make sense. Those changes as much as they were needed they killed this doctirne. Therefore:

1. Replace Tiger ace with King Tiger - upgraded with a tank commander upgrade - to add even small arty call in barrage to the commander - (no resources penalties)
2. Add smoke nades for pgrens and stormtroopers with a stun nades ability.

...

Revamp is to make old weak commanders more atractive but not overpowered. Redesign commander also cannot have all type of abilities inside - strafe, arty, call in infantry and tank, upgrades for basic infantry units (like guard rifle).
...

I agree and have made similar thread.
https://www.coh2.org/topic/81270/commander-rework-approach

Is there gonna be a pool to pick the revamping commanders?

Offtopic on:

Relic and the team is reading all 5 threads. About a poll, i think there could be one coming up "soon". Atm its in the startphase to see how people think and feel.

Offtopic off:

Now more suggestions to commanders.

I still believe in Tiger II instead of Tiger Ace.
IDK why Relic remove exchanges from the game, but save tiger ace with it's resuorce penalties. They need to go out from the game.
Even OKW lose it's resource penalty.

Additional idea:

Replace all regiel mine abilities with a reparing 251 ht (or as a upgrade or as a new unit). Can repare vehicules, lay mines - riegel, and sweep mines (after using ability the pio squad with sweepers shows up to clear the area). Unique ability that could refrash many commanders with that abilty - therefore not only revamp commander will get something new. Unit from all unit mods by sneakyEye