OKW UP?

That´s completly baseless. AEC´s usually dont make it until the late game.

It's baseless that UKF doesn't have a decent snare and that the AEC continues to be an option to fill that roll?

Neither do Pumas.

Uh:

pumas are too flimsy

I'm not sure what the point is of simultaneously calling my statement baseless while also confirming the point I was making.

JP4 is cheaper than Firefly and eats any UKF tank for breakfast. Cromwell can´t pen any OKW T4 tank with any regularity, sure it´s cheaper than a OKW P4 but that doesn´t make it better value for ressources. Centaur is still decent but makes you overly reliant on AT-guns that can be rushed/stukaed etc. Comet´s are way too expensive for what they do, 500 MP/180f is just crazy for what you get. Only remaining thing is the Churchill which is a decent choice, unless there are Panthers on the field already. It won´t pen OKW T4 tanks with regularity but at least it has lots of HP and smoke and thus good survivability.

I bolded the important part of your post.

OKW stuka zu fuss is great at clearing team weapons, like ATGs, (especially non-soviet ones), I'll give you that. Again I don't think it's UKF's tanks that are the problem. While I think it has more to do with UKF's low number of options to disable enemy armor I do think you make a valid point with "stukaed".

OKW is easy mode version 2. There is nothing UP about them.

OKW is easy mode version 2. There is nothing UP about them.

Double churchill and commandoes are strongly advising you to stop talk bad things about them.

I've been saying it for ages, and I'll say it again: Volksgrenadiers have non-existent damage output.

They pose no threat to anyone, ever, especially at Rank 0 without STGs.

The Raketenwerfer being worthless is an issue, but I still hold the core problem with OKW is Volksgrenadier damage output.

A balanced unit is a unit that actually poses a serious threat to enemy units. Volksgrenadiers threaten no one, ever.

Not really sure what game you are playing but Volks are pretty good for their lower cost and cheap upgrades. Volks with STG's are far better than Allied Infantry at least until they get Bolster/Weapon Racks. Volks aren't supposed to be better than everything else in the game, that is what the Obersoldaten are for. They are very cost effective, have lots of bonuses that don't require side tech, and have good scaling. You can also lose them in larger numbers and not suffer as much manpower bleed as Allied factions, even if the Allies generally have more durable infantry squads.

Not really sure what game you are playing but Volks are pretty good for their lower cost and cheap upgrades. Volks with STG's are far better than Allied Infantry at least until they get Bolster/Weapon Racks. Volks aren't supposed to be better than everything else in the game, that is what the Obersoldaten are for. They are very cost effective, have lots of bonuses that don't require side tech, and have good scaling. You can also lose them in larger numbers and not suffer as much manpower bleed as Allied factions, even if the Allies generally have more durable infantry squads.

This is a fallacy many fall for. I'm talking about purely Rank 0 Volksgrenadiers.

Units must be balanced not around their vet bonuses and not around their weapon upgrades but around their Vet 0, unupgraded, vanilla state.

That state is utterly unthreatening to anyone.

And shall I remind you of how weapon upgrades are supposed to be optional? How you're supposed to be able to invest munitions into something else, like mines, instead of upgrading weapons, and still stand a chance? Grenadiers can. Volksgrenadiers can't.

Vet is really important though because it proves who has better unit preservation, if units were based around Vet 0 power, there would be less incentive to keep units alive. Just because weapon upgrades should be optional doesn't mean they are in the current state of the game. Weapon upgrades are pretty much no-brainers for every faction at the moment. Of course Volks without STG's won't beat upgraded Allied infantry but that seems fair to me considering Allied infantry is more expensive and costs munitions plus side tech cost to get upgrades. You can easily go 4 Volks every game and overwhelm your opponent with numbers and power creep once you unlock STG's on all of your squads. Long term Volks are weaker than Penals, 2x Bar Rifles, 2x Bren 5-man Tommies. But with access to Obers, Falls, and Panzerfusiliers, I don't think you are too outgunned, it's noticeable but not impossible. Volks are generally better than Grens, more durable, better veterancy bonuses and a more useful grenade. Although I do like the G43's on Grens for its cost and I do think the LMG42 is better than the STG's at longer ranges.

Long term Volks are weaker than Penals, 2x Bar Rifles, 2x Bren 5-man Tommies. But with access to Obers, Falls, and Panzerfusiliers, I don't think you are too outgunned, it's noticeable but not impossible. Volks are generally better than Grens, more durable, better veterancy bonuses and a more useful grenade. Although I do like the G43's on Grens for its cost and I do think the LMG42 is better than the STG's at longer ranges.

All of that is later. All of that is past Rank 0, past Tier 0, past early game.

Volksgrenadiers deal absolutely terrible damage early on and simply pose no threat.

Does being able to build their own sandbags warrant lower damage? I don't know, but I don't think there's anything that justifies it. There was a slight buff to their damage at one point, like a year or more ago, but then it got reduced, and they became this weird "turtle hardcore or lose ground" unit in a faction that's supposed to be universalists with a balance of offensive and defensive capabilities.

In short, I understand why people are going 3x Sturmpioneers nowadays...

requires lots of micro

To misquote Cruzz:

"Blobbing is a way of life for OKW"

All of that is later. All of that is past Rank 0, past Tier 0, past early game.

Volksgrenadiers deal absolutely terrible damage early on and simply pose no threat.

Does being able to build their own sandbags warrant lower damage? I don't know, but I don't think there's anything that justifies it. There was a slight buff to their damage at one point, like a year or more ago, but then it got reduced, and they became this weird "turtle hardcore or lose ground" unit in a faction that's supposed to be universalists with a balance of offensive and defensive capabilities.

In short, I understand why people are going 3x Sturmpioneers nowadays...

Volks can solo riflemen at long ranges... sturms win vs riflemen at close ranges... kubels can inflict bleed without taking losses... volks can make sandbags while rifles cant (unless doc)...use ur advantages

Double churchill and commandoes are strongly advising you to stop talk bad things about them.

Hows that 30% ukf winrate going? Definitely OKW UP and UKF OP right?

Volks can solo riflemen at long ranges... sturms win vs riflemen at close ranges... kubels can inflict bleed without taking losses... volks can make sandbags while rifles cant (unless doc)...use ur advantages

Stop using "can beat enemies at long range" as an argument...

All Allied squads (even the four-man British squads, somehow) can close in directly into enemy fire without losing a single model, get into the same cover as an Axis unit, and wipe the Axis unit.

In a game where units can't see more than five feet over an open field due to some kind of congential pseudo-blindness and where Allied infantry is allowed to ignore enemy fire while having the "advantage" of winning in close range against every enemy unit, units that have slightly higher accuracy at range are not advantaged in any way -- if they dealt extremely lethal, high DPS at long range, forcing Allied infantry to flank and use line of sight for fear of being shredded within half a second of being exposed to long range fire (same way Axis infantry is shredded within half a second of being exposed to Allied close range fire), then you'd have an argument, but that's not how it works.

Stop using "can beat enemies at long range" as an argument...

All Allied squads (even the four-man British squads, somehow) can close in directly into enemy fire without losing a single model, get into the same cover as an Axis unit, and wipe the Axis unit.

In a game where units can't see more than five feet over an open field due to some kind of congential pseudo-blindness and where Allied infantry is allowed to ignore enemy fire while having the "advantage" of winning in close range against every enemy unit, units that have slightly higher accuracy at range are not advantaged in any way -- if they dealt extremely lethal, high DPS at long range, forcing Allied infantry to flank and use line of sight for fear of being shredded within half a second of being exposed to long range fire (same way Axis infantry is shredded within half a second of being exposed to Allied close range fire), then you'd have an argument, but that's not how it works.

If they rush in thru open ground to get to midrange then use sturmpios to dissuade them...
Kubelwagens are also useful tools for making models drop before they get tk midrange...
Volks can lay sandbags to prevent them from bleeding as heavy in the event the rifles do get to midrange...

Lastly Okw has a 70% winrate against usf and ukf soo regardless of ur argument okw is empirically NOT UP... its UKF and USF which are UP

Balance forum in a nutshell:

https://www.coh2.org/topic/83050/do-volks-need-some-nerf-if-so-how

next thread:

https://www.coh2.org/topic/81088/okw-up

OKW matches pretty fairly with sov and wehr... their winrates are overall pretty close... the only real factions with really low winrates is ukf and usf both of which need big buffs...

OKW matches pretty fairly with sov and wehr... their winrates are overall pretty close... the only real factions with really low winrates is ukf and usf both of which need big buffs...

Source?

OKW are strong when you blob and rush light vehicles, continually camping the cutoff of your opponent. Cmd panther or jadgtiger are strong. Rushing puma with (Heat) shells allow to 3 shot medium vehicles.

I have no idea how to get OKW to function in 1v1 anymore, but from what I see in tournies and top players, you need to be aggressive with your sturms early, especially vs USF since they start with a sizeable disadvantage. A light vehicle is required a lot of the time to help your volks through mid game. raks are always near your light, and don't try and fight upgraded allied infantry 1v1 with volks unless its con ppshs at max range.

Sturms are the saving grace of okw early game vs usf. They beat all their units in 1v1 scenarios and are good for grabbing key garrisons (which usf are very weak against) and keeping riflemen from moving up on your volks.

The kubel is also very nice as usf has no automatic weapons at the beginning of the game or you could just cap the other side of the map with it and focus your entire army on his side.

If he goes lieutenant he has not at guns, so FHT or luchs, and no good indirect, so leigs are also good. If he goes captain he has absolutely no suppression so playing infantry heavy is to your benefit there. It’s also very doable to hold off on choosing commanders until he picks a tier and then picking based off what he will have or not (ex. going luftwaffe because he went captain and has no suppression to deal with falls).

OKW are strong when you blob and rush light vehicles, continually camping the cutoff of your opponent. Cmd panther or jadgtiger are strong. Rushing puma with (Heat) shells allow to 3 shot medium vehicles.

Doesn’t puma HEAT take 4 shots to kill mediums? Unless you mean something other than tanks.

I have absolutely no idea why OP posted in OKW strategies when he ignored advice and argued for balance.

Moved out of State Office.

Volks can solo riflemen at long ranges... sturms win vs riflemen at close ranges...

How to spot bias: Say that riflemen beat volks (which is what you implied when you said volks beat riflemen at long) at short range and strums beat riflemen at short range but only claim one is OP.