Patch small arms changes DID NOT CHANGE DPS

But now, +damage bulletin for conscripts is 0.16 damage superior to gren +damage bulletin. Clear soviet bias!

Until the next patch when bulletins are completely reworked...

Something still doesnt make sense to me in all of this.

i could try writing up a response but id rather just quote milkacows response to this topic from the official forums. this explains why gren damage had to be changed from 20 to 16. let me know if you need more clarification.

"Prior to the patch overkill was low for most weapons (SVT may have been an exception), but the 25% incoming damage modifier for weapon crews changed this. As Matrick stated earlier - a Gren would need 4 shots (80/20 = 4) to kill a normal entity and support weapon (80/(20*1.25)=3.2 = 4), so that 25% incoming modifier would have done little for Grens and created a lot of overkill in that situation (20*1.25*4 = 100 => 20 dmg overkill). To balance that out the values of several small arms weapons were changed to reduce the overkill against support weapons while keeping it low vs normal weapons as well. For Grenadiers that would be
80 / 16 = 5 shots vs normal entities
80 / (16 * 1.25) = 4 shots vs support weapons
So no overkill at all for Grenadiers fighting any unit, that means DPS is still a good estimate. Now factor in the other changes which make the weapon fire 5/4 more effective (slightly faster, slightly more accurate etc) which exactly balances out the decrease in damage, resulting in the fact that Grenadiers still have the pretty much the same DPS. Does this mean there are no changes at all? No - the new changes do not affect gameplay on average, but in some cases Grenadiers are weaker. Old Grens had the chance to instantly kill a Conscript entity in the first salvo which new ones do not posess anymore. Since such a situation happens once in every hundred engagements (all 4 entities need to shoot at one Conscript entity and at highest they have a hit chance of 0.5^4 = 1/16), so this change has really an incredibly low overall effect on the old infantry balance."

Well six Mosin Nagants are a strong as four Kar-98s, but isn't having six of them a disadvantage here? I mean when you match up a Grenadier in same cover as a Conscript against each other, and just let them fire away at each other, it's most likely that the first model to die is a conscript one. At that point there are 5 Mosin Nagants against 4 Kar 98s, so the Grenadiers will actually have higher DPS at this point.

In my experience whichever squad loses the first member almost always loses the engagement. IIRC the DPS is identical if both squads are full strength. If the extra DPS from the individual Kar makes them more likely to get the first kill then the engagement wouldn't be 50/50. The question is whether the quality of the Kar is more than enough to offset the quantity of the Nagants to give them a higher probability at dropping the first guy.

Now I haven't done any calculations, but it seems like the defensive bonus from Gren vet 2 makes a much bigger impact than the Soviet vet 2 dps improvement. Plus on top of that the Grens can upgrade MG42 while PPSH is pretty subpar and doctrinal. The PPSH accuracy and damage statistics are actually pretty good on paper, but they only fire these incredibly short bursts instead of the sustained fire we would see from vCoH upgrades e.g. BAR/Thompson.

Until the next patch when bulletins are completely reworked...

Good, I was just about to whine about that . I hope the changes are something cool.

@Basilone: Remember that Sov Infantry Vet 2 is not only dps. Its reciprocated vs the Ost Vet 2 survival by its own proportional Vet2 survival bonus as well.

@Wooof: Thanks for the detailed explanation. I trust the Dev team, but sometimes outcomes of patches which are not entirely comprehensive are not as expected.

For example, what about the SVT change? Are Penals now validly returned to the meta?

[...]
Now I haven't done any calculations, but it seems like the defensive bonus from Gren vet 2 makes a much bigger impact than the Soviet vet 2 dps improvement.[...]

Engagement at less than 10 range (excluding crits):

Without vet:
Grens: average 31,78 seconds to kill Cons
Cons: average 31,49 seconds to kill Grens

Vet 2:
Grens: average 39,73 seconds to kill Cons
Cons: average 39,85 seconds to kill Grens

Seems pretty equal to me.

That is without LMG or PPSh upgrades of course.

Just realised something - the change in Gren per shot damage might not have changed their DPS too much, but it had made soviet snipers to take 3 shots (with last being 50% overkill) instead of 2.

Not a huge issue I guess (especially with sniper shot speed adjustment), but I wonder if this change was overlooked, intended or just acceptable "collateral damage" to team weapon changes done this patch?

my guess is collateral damage. if they wanted no overkill on snipers, theyd have to make all small arms a multiple of 40 rather than 80.

I just wanted to clarify that when I said I felt Mosin Nagants felt unimpressive, it had little to do with the early game gren vs cons match up. I completely agree that the early Mosin vs K98 battle was and is very balanced. My issue was that when you add, heavy and light Mg-42s into the mix, Mosins suddenly feel a lot crappier as they lose at all ranges and don't scale at all. A lot of this sentiment has been fixed with this patch as flanks are worth it on weapon crews but the scaling issue remains.

As Woof said, this is somewhat counter acted by the soviet's choice in doctrinal infantry, but even then, with merge giving conscript armor to the units merged, you're essentially paying a higher mp/upkeep (and in the case of guards, some muni) cost for parity in the infantry department. Again though, I'm not advocating an overall increase in conscript dps; I had only hoped that the accuracy values would be tweaked a bit in favor of cons having a higher (than the small difference it is now) close range dps to emphasize german support weapon reliance and long range superiority and to reward cons a bit more late game for continuing to play aggressively.

As it stands now, Cons feel a bit like Volks from CoH1 role wise, in that they have an effective early game range but as the game progresses they are relegated more to a support and capping role. The difference is that in CoH 1, volks synergized well with MGs in a long range and flank prevention role while cons in CoH 2 have abilities which require them to get close to use but weapons which don't scale well in that role as the dps on everything else goes up in mid game and beyond.

Again, I'm not crying for buffs to soviets as I love playing both factions and I love having a balanced game; I just wish that the close/far relationship between cons and grens had been tweaked a bit more.

It was accepted that squads with 40 hp will now have over kill. We've considered increasing their health to 48 or just accepting it. Let us see how it plays out and we'll go from there.

edit: keep in mind Soviets already suffered from this overkill. So Germans actually had the advantage in this regard, it is no even between the factions.

I understand all the statistics suggesting balance between these units, but how often on any map does a full health grenadier squad face off against a full health conscript squad at the exact same time, in the exact same cover, with both squads facing each other and not meandering around diving in and out of cover?

It can be a real struggle to get every squad member of a conscript squad (grens too to a lesser degree) to get into cover. Most of the time one or two individuals spill out into the open or run around no matter the object of cover. Most wrecks and vehicles usually provide enough cover for 5 squad members I've noticed. Most cover rarely is enough for more than two or three squad members at a time.

Balancing a game strictly around DPS does no one any favors. Diablo 3 is a wonderful/frightening example of this. CoH2 and its predecessor are both games with an exceptional level of depth beyond mere damage output and health. Most engagements involve some sort of movement towards cover, on the part of one or both players.

In my experience grenadier squads are much more capable of maneuvering in (and out) of cover than their soviet counterparts before suffering a casualty. I should stress that this is not a critique of the unit, but a highlight of how it is an exceptional factor in gameplay that's not strictly DPS balancing. Conscript squads by design are much riskier to move around under fire in terms of manpower for whatever reason: to dodge a grenade/mortar, towards a reinforcing/medic bunker or halftrack to reinforce, or to advance on an enemy position.

The need and ability for units to carry out these tasks are just as important to their damage output.

I understand all the statistics suggesting balance between these units, but how often on any map does a full health grenadier squad face off against a full health conscript squad at the exact same time, in the exact same cover, with both squads facing each other and not meandering around diving in and out of cover?

It can be a real struggle to get every squad member of a conscript squad (grens too to a lesser degree) to get into cover. Most of the time one or two individuals spill out into the open or run around no matter the object of cover. Most wrecks and vehicles usually provide enough cover for 5 squad members I've noticed. Most cover rarely is enough for more than two or three squad members at a time.

Balancing a game strictly around DPS does no one any favors. Diablo 3 is a wonderful/frightening example of this. CoH2 and its predecessor are both games with an exceptional level of depth beyond mere damage output and health. Most engagements involve some sort of movement towards cover, on the part of one or both players.

In my experience grenadier squads are much more capable of maneuvering in (and out) of cover than their soviet counterparts before suffering a casualty. I should stress that this is not a critique of the unit, but a highlight of how it is an exceptional factor in gameplay that's not strictly DPS balancing. Conscript squads by design are much riskier to move around under fire in terms of manpower for whatever reason: to dodge a grenade/mortar, towards a reinforcing/medic bunker or halftrack to reinforce, or to advance on an enemy position.

The need and ability for units to carry out these tasks are just as important to their damage output.

+1. I came.

It was accepted that squads with 40 hp will now have over kill. We've considered increasing their health to 48 or just accepting it. Let us see how it plays out and we'll go from there.

edit: keep in mind Soviets already suffered from this overkill. So Germans actually had the advantage in this regard, it is no even between the factions.

what is "overkill"

what is "overkill"

all good examples of overkill

Overkill (in this case):
Models die at 0 hp (as far as I know) and most weapons small arms weapons deal constant damage. So, if the targeted model has 1 hp after getting shot 2 times, the last bullet (that will kill it) will do overkill damage (only 1 damage needed, but full force used regardless, thus damage goes wasted). Hopefully that clears it.

Relic has been very careful to not let this happen to a great extent, so for example the 80 hp models would die without getting overkilled.

It was accepted that squads with 40 hp will now have over kill. We've considered increasing their health to 48 or just accepting it. Let us see how it plays out and we'll go from there.

edit: keep in mind Soviets already suffered from this overkill. So Germans actually had the advantage in this regard, it is no even between the factions.

That's true that now both sniper squads have equal survivability to bullets, but someone could argue that the previous situation was a case of "asymmetrical balance" - Soviet snipers are more survivable against explosive weapons, German sniper is more survivable against small arms (due to overkill on some weapons).

But it's like you said - it's too early to judge if that change will have any significant impact.
And anyway, it's a pretty minor issue when compared to other balance problems we have now.

It was accepted that squads with 40 hp will now have over kill. We've considered increasing their health to 48 or just accepting it. Let us see how it plays out and we'll go from there.

edit: keep in mind Soviets already suffered from this overkill. So Germans actually had the advantage in this regard, it is no even between the factions.

Thanks for elaborating this. The reasoning behind the change seems sound and logical. Let's see how it plays out.

Until the next patch when bulletins are completely reworked...

Can we get COHO bulletins (or whatever they were called back then) back pls? :3