Login

russian armor

Patch small arms changes DID NOT CHANGE DPS

10 Sep 2013, 20:19 PM
#1
avatar of Endeav

Posts: 170

There's been some talk that the new patch notes have nerfed grens and buffed penals and etc.

However, in line with relic's reasoning for changing small arms:

Focus on better aligning infantry small arms within our health/damage system. This reduces the amount of overkill and better enables us to control how small arms functions within the game.


DPS values MOVED VERY SLIGHTLY (less than .5%)

Example:

Kar98k:
Prepatch: 3.8 near / 2.42 mid / 1.03 far
Post patch: 3.78 near / 2.40 mid / 1.03 far

Penal SVT:
Prepatch: 5.73 near / 3.62 mid / 1.50 far
Post patch: 5.78 near / 3.61 mid / 1.50 far

They did the math to get the numbers to work out to be the same. Why they changed grenadiers from 20 to 16 when it wasn't overkilling units is unknown, but their dps is still unchanged and they still do more dps than conscripts. Penals will no longer overkill units which may be a usability buff but their overall dps remains consistent.
10 Sep 2013, 20:34 PM
#2
avatar of Enkidu

Posts: 351

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2013, 20:19 PMEndeav
There's been some talk that the new patch notes have nerfed grens and buffed penals and etc.

However, in line with relic's reasoning for changing small arms:



DPS values MOVED VERY SLIGHTLY (less than .5%)

Example:

Kar98k:
Prepatch: 3.8 near / 2.42 mid / 1.03 far
Post patch: 3.78 near / 2.40 mid / 1.03 far

Penal SVT:
Prepatch: 5.73 near / 3.62 mid / 1.50 far
Post patch: 5.78 near / 3.61 mid / 1.50 far

They did the math to get the numbers to work out to be the same. Why they changed grenadiers from 20 to 16 when it wasn't overkilling units is unknown, but their dps is still unchanged and they still do more dps than conscripts. Penals will no longer overkill units which may be a usability buff but their overall dps remains consistent.


Thanks for that Endeav. I'm pretty surprised they didn't tweak the Mosin Nagants as cons just feel so unimpressive right now, but I guess with the MG-42 changes and support weapon changes they need to be careful.
10 Sep 2013, 20:50 PM
#3
avatar of wooof

Posts: 950 | Subs: 1

hey man you stole my work, just reformatted it. thats called plagiarism :) no wonder you didnt last long in college.


as for the mosinn dps enkidu, a squad of conscripts deals very similar dps to a squad of grens. everyones major complaint was flanking mgs wasnt rewarding enough. thats been fixed now. i dont think cons need a buff
10 Sep 2013, 20:58 PM
#4
avatar of Endeav

Posts: 170

Pfft i it the numbers in last night on my test sheet.
10 Sep 2013, 21:06 PM
#5
avatar of wooof

Posts: 950 | Subs: 1

your test sheet? now youre stealing milkacows work!?
10 Sep 2013, 21:07 PM
#6
avatar of rofltehcat

Posts: 604

Interesting. I already suspected as much, would have been very surprised if it really favored one faction.
I guess it decreases the effectiveness of the conscript health bulletin, though? In pure Gren vs. Conscripts early game engagements of course.
10 Sep 2013, 21:19 PM
#7
avatar of Blovski

Posts: 480

Interesting. I already suspected as much, would have been very surprised if it really favored one faction.
I guess it decreases the effectiveness of the conscript health bulletin, though? In pure Gren vs. Conscripts early game engagements of course.


Um, I think I saw someone suggest you die when you drop below a certain amount of hit points anyway, so the effect of the conscript health bulletin might actually be increased.
10 Sep 2013, 22:20 PM
#8
avatar of Enkidu

Posts: 351

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2013, 20:50 PMwooof
hey man you stole my work, just reformatted it. thats called plagiarism :) no wonder you didnt last long in college.


as for the mosinn dps enkidu, a squad of conscripts deals very similar dps to a squad of grens. everyones major complaint was flanking mgs wasnt rewarding enough. thats been fixed now. i dont think cons need a buff


In that case thanks woof : P !

I know that in a bubble cons and vanilla grens are very similar in their dps and survivability but with gren lmgs; mg-42 suppression, point blank damage and survivability (hopefully fixed); cons having to cross out of cover to throw a molotov vs rifle nades being often easier to use from cover... The list goes on but the point is, in the complex context of an actual game I often find cons to just be lacking. I get the whole asymmetrical balance thing and I'm not saying "Soviets so UP!!!" or anything like that; I was just hoping for an adjustment for cons to make their semi required aggression feel more rewarding. Something like an increase in close range accuracy and a decrease in long range accuracy or something to that effect.
10 Sep 2013, 22:51 PM
#9
avatar of wooof

Posts: 950 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2013, 22:20 PMEnkidu


In that case thanks woof : P !

I know that in a bubble cons and vanilla grens are very similar in their dps and survivability but with gren lmgs; mg-42 suppression, point blank damage and survivability (hopefully fixed); cons having to cross out of cover to throw a molotov vs rifle nades being often easier to use from cover... The list goes on but the point is, in the complex context of an actual game I often find cons to just be lacking. I get the whole asymmetrical balance thing and I'm not saying "Soviets so UP!!!" or anything like that; I was just hoping for an adjustment for cons to make their semi required aggression feel more rewarding. Something like an increase in close range accuracy and a decrease in long range accuracy or something to that effect.


well i get what you mean, but i think that has to do with relics whole design for cons. youre right that they are lacking once germans get upgrades/mgs/pgrens but if they buffed cons, then theyd be stronger than grens in the early game. relic has said they didnt want cons to scale as well as grens, so i think things are working how they want them. cons are equal to grens early on, then should be phased out and replaced with elite inf later on. if you want to use cons longer, you need to pick the htd/ppsh doctrine.
11 Sep 2013, 06:17 AM
#10
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post10 Sep 2013, 20:34 PMEnkidu
I'm pretty surprised they didn't tweak the Mosin Nagants as cons just feel so unimpressive right now


Everyone needs to stop spreading this myth.

Seriously. Just fucking stop it.

They are almost entirely identical.
11 Sep 2013, 06:52 AM
#11
avatar of Mike.Gayner

Posts: 115

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Sep 2013, 06:17 AMNullist


Everyone needs to stop spreading this myth.

Seriously. Just fucking stop it.

They are almost entirely identical.


Have to agree with Nullist here and the data supports it. vGrens vs vCons is 50/50, anyone who believes that one is particularly stronger/weaker is delusional.
11 Sep 2013, 07:19 AM
#12
avatar of cvax

Posts: 4

No buff on conscripts needed. I've used them with incredible effectiveness against MGs in this patch. Axis will have to readjust their early game meta and play more of a combined arms early game now. Just like in vCoH. This will make for a much more dynamic and exciting early game.
11 Sep 2013, 07:48 AM
#13
avatar of CptEend
Patrion 14

Posts: 369



Have to agree with Nullist here and the data supports it. vGrens vs vCons is 50/50, anyone who believes that one is particularly stronger/weaker is delusional.


Well six Mosin Nagants are a strong as four Kar-98s, but isn't having six of them a disadvantage here? I mean when you match up a Grenadier in same cover as a Conscript against each other, and just let them fire away at each other, it's most likely that the first model to die is a conscript one. At that point there are 5 Mosin Nagants against 4 Kar 98s, so the Grenadiers will actually have higher DPS at this point. The question is if this will be enough of a difference for the Grenadiers to gain and hold some DPS momentum. If the 2nd conscript dies about at the same time as (or sooner than) the 1st grenadier, then the grenadiers will effectively have had more DPS than the conscript, leading them to win the engagement in the end.

Now the question is of course what really does happen, RNG makes this a little complex. Would love to see some tests on this, but until then I tend to think Grenadiers are at the advantage here.
11 Sep 2013, 07:55 AM
#14
avatar of Mike.Gayner

Posts: 115

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Sep 2013, 07:48 AMCptEend


Well six Mosin Nagants are a strong as four Kar-98s, but isn't having six of them a disadvantage here? I mean when you match up a Grenadier in same cover as a Conscript against each other, and just let them fire away at each other, it's most likely that the first model to die is a conscript one. At that point there are 5 Mosin Nagants against 4 Kar 98s, so the Grenadiers will actually have higher DPS at this point. The question is if this will be enough of a difference for the Grenadiers to gain and hold some DPS momentum. If the 2nd conscript dies about at the same time as (or sooner than) the 1st grenadier, then the grenadiers will effectively have had more DPS than the conscript, leading them to win the engagement in the end.

Now the question is of course what really does happen, RNG makes this a little complex. Would love to see some tests on this, but until then I tend to think Grenadiers are at the advantage here.


If there is an advantage to Grens (there isn't) it's incredibly tiny. All of what you said is offset by Gren model numbers. When you crit a gren the squad loses 25% of its firepower, versus 17% for Cons.

It's completely false to think that one is notably stronger than the other.
11 Sep 2013, 08:04 AM
#15
avatar of wooof

Posts: 950 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Sep 2013, 07:48 AMCptEend


Well six Mosin Nagants are a strong as four Kar-98s, but isn't having six of them a disadvantage here? I mean when you match up a Grenadier in same cover as a Conscript against each other, and just let them fire away at each other, it's most likely that the first model to die is a conscript one. At that point there are 5 Mosin Nagants against 4 Kar 98s, so the Grenadiers will actually have higher DPS at this point. The question is if this will be enough of a difference for the Grenadiers to gain and hold some DPS momentum. If the 2nd conscript dies about at the same time as (or sooner than) the 1st grenadier, then the grenadiers will effectively have had more DPS than the conscript, leading them to win the engagement in the end.

Now the question is of course what really does happen, RNG makes this a little complex. Would love to see some tests on this, but until then I tend to think Grenadiers are at the advantage here.


relic has said they already tested this extensively. this was with the old stats (before these latest gren changes) but it was essentially 50/50. i cant find the post that talked about this, but heres another one that shows the time to kill is very even. it really comes down to RNG.



At near range, 0 - 10 units, a Conscript takes on average 31.53s to kill a Grenadier squad. Similarly, a Grenadier squad takes 31.58s. However, if you take the absolute values the time is nearly identical, rounding resulted in the minor discrepancy.

11 Sep 2013, 15:33 PM
#16
avatar of Spetznova

Posts: 29

Yeah, conscripts vs grens with default weapons is balanced. It only becomes one-sided when LMGs hit the field.
11 Sep 2013, 16:06 PM
#17
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
Which is why the Gren change concerned me.

I assume Relic know what they are doing though, and give them the benefit of the doubt with only one reservation. If it was so balanced, why change it...
11 Sep 2013, 16:32 PM
#18
avatar of Blovski

Posts: 480

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Sep 2013, 16:06 PMNullist
Which is why the Gren change concerned me.

I assume Relic know what they are doing though, and give them the benefit of the doubt with only one reservation. If it was so balanced, why change it...


I think what they were explaining on the stream was that it was about the overkill. So, previously the gren rifle would take 4 good hits to kill an infantry/support team member. With the +25% damage buff, it'd result in grens overkilling maxims or mortar members and wasting a lot of their damage (in that they'd still take 4 shots). Making it more consistent over time better balances that matchup out.
11 Sep 2013, 16:35 PM
#19
avatar of WiFiDi
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3293

they were smart they made 1 variable adding the 25 percent damage buff. instead of 2 changes (variables) the rifle damage and made a damage buff.

11 Sep 2013, 16:48 PM
#20
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post11 Sep 2013, 16:32 PMBlovski


I think what they were explaining on the stream was that it was about the overkill. So, previously the gren rifle would take 4 good hits to kill an infantry/support team member. With the +25% damage buff, it'd result in grens overkilling maxims or mortar members and wasting a lot of their damage (in that they'd still take 4 shots). Making it more consistent over time better balances that matchup out.


That raises the implication that balance is infact based and built off Cons as a baseline then.

Ive had a few whiskies, but it seems to me that its Cons that would need adjusting with the 25% dmg vs Support teams, considering those are only 4/6.

Something still doesnt make sense to me in all of this.

But I see what you mean, that Grens, with fewer rifles, would "waste" DPS on Sov support teams after the dmg buff, due to overkill. Glad they are that professional to notice something like that.

But still, what about Cons vs Ost 4/6 Support teams, that are already at a systemically set lower survival quotient.
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Livestreams

Germany 13
New Zealand 10
unknown 2

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

778 users are online: 778 guests
0 post in the last 24h
3 posts in the last week
23 posts in the last month
Registered members: 48737
Welcome our newest member, desertsafariprice
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM