AT Grenades too effective

AT grenades and Panzerfaust will see reduced effectiveness vs. heavier targets. This change is meant to improve the flow of mid-to-late game tank combat by making aggressive maneuvers less risky. Heavy tanks should be better able to spearhead as a result. Little to no impact vs. medium to light vehicles.

AT Grenade

Damage from 80 to 100
Added deflection damage, now deals 80 damage on deflect
Penetration from 1000 to 100

What deflection is there? It never happens. EVERY time I have an AT Nade thrown at ANY of my tanks they ALWAYS get a damaged engine, which quite frankly is game breaking and makes SU85's unflankable. AT Grenades should not damage the engine every single fucking time. I've have them kill the engine on Tigers, Elephants, P4's you name it, it always kills the engine, even if the tank has full health.

It doesn't matter how well I go in early game as Germans, Russians still just skip their Tiers and build T4 and a cheap 115 fuel SU85, backed my scripts with AT Nades and heaven forbid Guards with that stupid retarded button ability, it makes German tanks useless. Also they can mine up with cheap 30 muni mines, where are the Germans cheap 30 muni mines?

+1 if anything the patch has made AT grens stronger and fausts weaker.

Not ONCE have I seen my pz4/ostwind or even panther manage to sucessfully deflect an AT gren. Compare this to the su85 consistently managing to deflect fausts.

Its so fucking annoying when you try to flank those su85's, only for a hoorahing conscript squad running faster than Usan Bolt to magically AT gren your panther in the 1st shot.

You probably haven't noticed the times when a AT grenade was thrown on your tanks and it didn't penetrate. It definitely will fail to work a majority of the time when thrown on heavy armor.

Actually, AT grenade penetration is much lower than the panzerfaust (100 vs 140), though I have no idea why. It makes sense from a realistic angle, but then they should make the AT grenade cost less - since currently the two abilities both cost 25 munitions, and the ATG even requires an upgrade to unlock.

I've certainly had AT grenades deflect and do nothing on my tiger. So it does happen for sure.

I've certainly had AT grenades deflect and do nothing on my tiger. So it does happen for sure.

I am talking about PZ4's/Ostwinds/Panthers .... AT grens in fact deal more damage than before and consistently penetrate.

You probably haven't noticed the times when a AT grenade was thrown on your tanks and it didn't penetrate. It definitely will fail to work a majority of the time when thrown on heavy armor.

Actually, AT grenade penetration is much lower than the panzerfaust (100 vs 140), though I have no idea why. It makes sense from a realistic angle, but then they should make the AT grenade cost less - since currently the two abilities both cost 25 munitions, and the ATG even requires an upgrade to unlock.

Because AT grens with their trajectory makes them far more likely to hit the rear ... this is what the devs said. This make them consistently give engine damage despite their apparent lower penetration.

You need to be much more conservative with your armor as Ost.

Owing to the nature of the ATNades parabolic and terrain avoiding trajectory, it will invariably hit your rear armor, since it seems to be targetted atleast at the center of the armor units hitbox.

Fausts apparently can be dodged, by retreating behind hard cover, which results in the initially targetted projectile impacting on the cover instead. ATNade howver, are like homing pidgeons, and will fly over and beyond any cover, and land right on you, no matter how far you Blitz/Smoke from them.

Dunno whether this really needs adjustment. I do, however, know that you need to keep your armor well out of ATNade range in the first place.

Faust has an advantage vs light vehicles. ATNade has an advantage vs all vehicles, owing to its parabolic and tracing nature. This is somewhat warranted due to ATNades fuel related purchase cost.

Just. Do. Not. Get. Into. ATNade. Range.

Did you ever try At nading a heaving tank ? Panther, Tiger ? almost never works.

Fausts apparently can be dodged, by retreating behind hard cover, which results in the initially targetted projectile impacting on the cover instead.

This is rather difficult to reproduce. I saw it happen on StephennJF's stream as well as 1-2 other times, but it doesn't seem to work on a regular basis. I've occasionally tried to drive behind cover to avoid the faust, but so far without success. In one of the games between Barton and OMGPOP! in the recent Wifi's gamekeys tournament a gren squad managed to pfaust a M3 right through a building - so maybe it depends on what type of shot-blocker there is?

Honestly, it would be best if AT nades and fausts were functionally identical. Having the chance of AT nades hitting the opposite side of the tank is just an unnecessary RNG increase, especially if it means lowering the penetration so much.

check out 30:10 .. now when is the last (only) time you have seen even this sort of basic shot in coh2?

You need to be much more conservative with your armor as Ost.

Owing to the nature of the ATNades parabolic and terrain avoiding trajectory, it will invariably hit your rear armor, since it seems to be targetted atleast at the center of the armor units hitbox.

Fausts apparently can be dodged, by retreating behind hard cover, which results in the initially targetted projectile impacting on the cover instead. ATNade howver, are like homing pidgeons, and will fly over and beyond any cover, and land right on you, no matter how far you Blitz/Smoke from them.

Dunno whether this really needs adjustment. I do, however, know that you need to keep your armor well out of ATNade range in the first place.

Faust has an advantage vs light vehicles. ATNade has an advantage vs all vehicles, owing to its parabolic and tracing nature. This is somewhat warranted due to ATNades fuel related purchase cost.

Just. Do. Not. Get. Into. ATNade. Range.

^ Perfectly said.

Russian mines are 35 muni. and trigger on inf. & tanks. German mines are 60 muni and trigger only on tanks at bigger dmg.

I perfer Teller mines over russian mines, as when i'm building mines i want them to hit tanks, not infantry. So a tatic i've been seeing with germans is "scouting for mines" with their infantry before they blitzkrieg their p4s/ostwinds into my army, totally negating my soft-counter-Anti-Tank.

As for AT nades: 1.) they cost manpower & fuel 2.) they have research time 3.) they are on a argueably 'weak unit'.4.) they cost 35(?) muni to throw.
*WHEW* i hope my AT nade now does what i want it to do... SLOW DOWN (not kill) a tank that most likely killed 3/6 members of the squad already!

Plus, you're giving examples of a mixed/supported soviet army vs 'your 1 tank'.... that doesn't look good for your tank.

Yeah nerf the AT Nade,it one shots my MG-42,Armoured Car,FlameHT,Ostwind and even Tiger,this is ridicoulous,Germans don't have early/mid/late game chance against these monsters...or better,you should remove all AT and vehicles from Soviets and rename the faction France,Poland or Denmark and there you go,the perfect game )

Yeah nerf the AT Nade,it one shots my MG-42,Armoured Car,FlameHT,Ostwind and even Tiger,this is ridicoulous,Germans don't have early/mid/late game chance against these monsters...or better,you should remove all AT and vehicles from Soviets and rename the faction France,Poland or Denmark and there you go,the perfect game )

another thoughtful, non biased and highly intelligent post from the resident troll who hates his own country and wishes he was russian.

WHAT a tool.

Devil and Jager... this has no basis whatsoever in reality, does it?

The change to AT nades is such that they will still always penetrate on the rear armour of a P-IV or Ostwind or what have you but they are now only about a 60% chance to penetrate a P-IV or Ostwind head-on. Against a Panther, they are less likely to penetrate, against a tiger there's only a 40% chance of penetrating even on the rear armour. Against an elephant, head-on, an AT nade has only a 25% chance of penetrating. Sometimes, a head-on AT-nade *can* hit the rear armour though it's not very common unless you're at very close range.

As with all penetration things, the rear armour is easier to get through, so it's probably you charging past conscripts and leaving the rear armour exposed.

It could just be you're both exceptionally unlucky, or it could be that you just haven't noticed when you've had a deflection, or it could be that you're making things up.

The things affected by the Panzerfaust change (I don't know what the ISU-152's armour is) are the SU-85, the KV-8 and the IS-2. Two of which are units you shouldn't be fausting and one of which is a unit that shouldn't be in faust range (if an SU-85 is in faust range, the Russian player has done something wrong). I think the chance of deflection of a faust on an SU-85 is lower than that of an AT nade on a P-IV. Russian T-3 tanks have no chance of deflecting a faust.

If you did *that* well in the early game, you would have an Ostwind before the SU-85 came out.

AT grenades don't always penetrate medium tanks and rarely penetrate heavy tanks. In fact, once I hit a single tiger with 6 AT grenades without scoring a single penetration. In another game I had a tiger for about 25 min and it did not get a single engine damage although I saw it hit with At grandes several times, but was not counting. This is proof that the patch is working as described.

I wasn't really a fan of the changes because more RNG = less player control. The medium/heavy tanks do shrug it off a good amount of the time from the front, though. Sometimes you just get boned by the RNG (which makes for shitty games).

This problem I think actually stems all the way back to SU85 and nothing more. Because Ost -has- to chase to get the SU85 vs engaging at a normal tank fighting distance, the grenades will usually be from behind and will usually work. Not chasing means the SU can plink away with its colossal range. Chasing means you get AT naded from the rear and then SU finishes. Lose/lose in that situation.

The reason this concept worked so well in CoH1 was that there were no uber range, high survivability, high damage AT units for Americans. Stickies existed to punish over extending and bad micro, but the game didn't demand that you over extend.

Fix the SU85 and return ATnade and Faust to reduced damage, 100% pen engine damage. Except maybe on heavies, make it 50% or 25% or something. Then you're back to the CoH1 system of only punishing overextension.

@Blovski: It comes straight from a Devs mouth that AT nades have a parabolic trajectory, and a very good chance to hit rear armor, even when thrown from infront, because it arcs and lands on the tank.

Dont ask me how that is supposed to make sense, or be reasonable. But thats the word.
Apparently AT Nades thrown from the front have a very good chance to actually hit rear armor instead.

@Abdul: I once pooped a little me, that pooped a little me, that pooped a little me.
It was incredible. Like a Russian Matroshka doll of constant pooping. Sorry I have no video/pics, but apparently shit can be truth. Reality needs to be rebalanced.

OP, AT nades have much lower penetration than Fausts. It only has 5/8 chance of dealing engine damage against a P4. You probably just didn't notice, for some reason.

@Blovski: It comes straight from a Devs mouth that AT nades have a parabolic trajectory, and a very good chance to hit rear armor, even when thrown from infront, because it arcs and lands on the tank.

Dont ask me how that is supposed to make sense, or be reasonable. But thats the word.
Apparently AT Nades thrown from the front have a very good chance to actually hit rear armor instead.

@Abdul: I once pooped a little me, that pooped a little me, that pooped a little me.
It was incredible. Like a Russian Matroshka doll of constant pooping. Sorry I have no video/pics, but apparently shit can be truth. Reality needs to be rebalanced.

Yeah, the arc makes it sometimes hit rear armour. I don't feel like I see it much at long range, though obviously you can't really tell.

+1 if anything the patch has made AT grens stronger and fausts weaker.

Not ONCE have I seen my pz4/ostwind or even panther manage to sucessfully deflect an AT gren. Compare this to the su85 consistently managing to deflect fausts.

Its so fucking annoying when you try to flank those su85's, only for a hoorahing conscript squad running faster than Usan Bolt to magically AT gren your panther in the 1st shot.

SU-85 frontal armor: 180; Panzerfaut Penetration: 140 = 78% chance to penetrate
Panzer IV frontal armor: 160; AT-Nade penetration: 100 = 62.5% chance to penetrate

AT nades hitting rear armor cannot be quantified, but it isn't that it happens 100% of the time. AT nade fails plenty on Panzer IV. Nevermind trying to AT nade a panther or a tiger.

You have some serious bias in all your posts.

Deflection damage means that whenever either of these weapons fail to penetrate for the engine crit, they will instead deal their deflection damage.