Relic! Message from STAVKA!
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4 Sep 2013, 18:06 PM
#41
Posts: 760
I have played this game for quite some time. I can tell you they do not have the same survivability. I already explained why.
4 Sep 2013, 18:19 PM
#42
Posts: 170
All infantry bar snipers have 80 hp. Conscripts have 1 armor for an effective health of 480. Grenadiers also have 80 health with 1.5 armor, giving 33% more hp, for an effective 480 hp against small arms fire (which all have 1 penetration).
If anything, conscripts are MORE survivable against grenades, flamers, tank rounds, artillery and etc. because they have more raw health and models to survive.
If anything, conscripts are MORE survivable against grenades, flamers, tank rounds, artillery and etc. because they have more raw health and models to survive.
4 Sep 2013, 20:05 PM
#43
Posts: 2425
Permanently Banned
I have played this game for quite some time. I can tell you they do not have the same survivability. I already explained why.
Sorry, but you are wrong. All the numbers prove it.
You do realise that a computer game is basically a system of numbers and code, right?
4 Sep 2013, 20:19 PM
#44
Posts: 627
ITT Ex-Soviet Bloc fanboys who want to spend their time online reliving the "glory" days of the Soviet Union.
4 Sep 2013, 22:03 PM
#45
Posts: 598
no, it would not. All infantry squads except snipers, have the same health. Because conscripts have only 1 armor and six men, they have less health per man. which means they are very easy to kill. Grenadiers in theory have more health than conscripts because they have 4 men ehich mean each model had more health than a conscript in addition to better armor. Rifleman in vcoh were weaker than german infantry but they had grenades andBARs to make up for that, here conscripts just have useless Molotoves, sometimes it does damage but most if the time it is useless. You should envy my creativity.
yes, each grenadier has more survival and riflemen/conscripts has more troops it balances out, i already made the comparison. i already explained the only problems i have with the two. Bars does not do well against vet 2 grenadiers, and they are an expensive 200 manpower and 60 fuel, while conscripts have ppshs ( even though it requires a doctrine, kind of skeptical about that) that cost only a few munitions. they also have other abilities that riflemen don't have like hit the dirt, and oorah. i'm not trying to be creative just trying to be reasonable.
4 Sep 2013, 23:06 PM
#46
Posts: 760
In this game having more troops does not "balances it out" you can just sneeze and bam one conscript is dead, metaphorically speaking of course. Bars were fine for me they gave rifles nice fire power to hold their own so they can be useful the the units they are supporting and suppression fire was good at stopping charges from stormtroopers,panzer grenadiers and the like, adding the ppsh will help but not immensely as the main problem still stands, they are to fragile to be used effectively. Hit the dirt was nerfed in to oblivion so its not longer is effective as it used to be.
4 Sep 2013, 23:12 PM
#47
Posts: 170
In this game having more troops does not "balances it out" you can just sneeze and bam one conscript is dead, metaphorically speaking of course. Bars were fine for me they gave rifles nice fire power to hold their own so they can be useful the the units they are supporting and suppression fire was good at stopping charges from stormtroopers,panzer grenadiers and the like, adding the ppsh will help but not immensely as the main problem still stands, they are to fragile to be used effectively. Hit the dirt was nerfed in to oblivion so its not longer is effective as it used to be.
I really don't understand the point you're trying to make. We've proven ad nauseum that conscripts aren't any squishier than grenadiers or even pgrens. Conscripts are also not intended to scale as well as grenadiers do, hence them lacking any mid to late game upgrades. Game design probably intends for you to rely on a doctrinal elite infantry. If they are not up to snuff for you, then that is a different design complaint.
4 Sep 2013, 23:55 PM
#48
Posts: 760
Are not anymore squishier? What game are you playing? And no one has proven anything to refute my previous argument. If conscripts are not suppose to scale well then this is a fatal design flaw it is ridiculous to pay 240mp for a unit intended to be useless. You can not rely on doctrinal infantry, do you know how expansive they are?
5 Sep 2013, 00:09 AM
#49
Posts: 170
You keep saying they are more fragile, it keeps getting refuted, okay.
Guards cost the same as panzer grens. Shocks are a tad overpriced but they are still supreme in anti infantry.
You argued that man for man conscripts are weaker; which is true, but if you examine the effective health of conscripts vs grenadiers, they are identical. I don't understand where your squishiness argument is coming from.
Conscripts aren't intended to be useless, nor are they later in the game. They still receive flexibility upgrades and still have a purpose late game for vehicle snaring.
Guards cost the same as panzer grens. Shocks are a tad overpriced but they are still supreme in anti infantry.
You argued that man for man conscripts are weaker; which is true, but if you examine the effective health of conscripts vs grenadiers, they are identical. I don't understand where your squishiness argument is coming from.
Conscripts aren't intended to be useless, nor are they later in the game. They still receive flexibility upgrades and still have a purpose late game for vehicle snaring.
5 Sep 2013, 00:39 AM
#50
Posts: 760
No it was never refuted and I provided evidence that proven conscripts are weaker, a measly 2 extra men does not change that. Guards are 360 manpower and 30mp to reinforce. You can not use them as your main infantry. Conscripts are useless and with the recent changes to the at grenades makes their situation even worst.
5 Sep 2013, 00:58 AM
#51
Posts: 829
only a fool would attempt to fight it out vs scout car with conscripts, let alone vs PiV.....so much for conscripts utility value in later game
Throwing one AT nade on Piv will most likely cost 100+ MP + ammo (often entire squad) AT nade that doesn't do much damage at all 90% of time
Useful only in first few minutes for capping
End of argument for me
Throwing one AT nade on Piv will most likely cost 100+ MP + ammo (often entire squad) AT nade that doesn't do much damage at all 90% of time
Useful only in first few minutes for capping
End of argument for me
5 Sep 2013, 01:18 AM
#52
Posts: 409
only a fool would attempt to fight it out vs scout car with conscripts, let alone vs PiV.....so much for conscripts utility value in later game
Throwing one AT nade on Piv will most likely cost 100+ MP + ammo (often entire squad) AT nade that doesn't do much damage at all 90% of time
Useful only in first few minutes for capping
End of argument for me
Why are you examining the conscripts in a vaccuum, and expecting them to compare to P4 tanks?
Of course they're a lot less useful if you're not using them in combination with AT guns and other support weapons where you can use merge. Why does ammo cost even matter? Soviets float munitions in the late game like nothing. Don't forget that also because they're 6-man squads versus the 4-man grenadiers they can pretty much capture any abandoned weapon whenever they want without losing the squad.
Only useful in the first few minutes for capping? Conscripts are good for capping even in the late game. Why waste a frontline Guard/Shock squad or an Engineer squad to cap a point when a conscript can do it instead (and faster too with Oorah, if there are multiple points to cap)? This allows the rest of your forces to keep to the offensive, which is what Soviets are best at.
There's a lot of utility that the conscripts have. They do not have offensive power late game, which seems to be what you want. However, that's not the design of the unit.
5 Sep 2013, 01:57 AM
#53
Posts: 829
Why are you examining the conscripts in a vaccuum, and expecting them to compare to P4 tanks?
All your comparisons are in the vaccum, I said that throwing 1 AT nade at Piv costs MP that will end up costing a game because it achieves nothing 90% of time
Of course they're a lot less useful if you're not using them in combination with AT guns and other support weapons where you can use merge. Why does ammo cost even matter? Soviets float munitions in the late game like nothing. Don't forget that also because they're 6-man squads versus the 4-man grenadiers they can pretty much capture any abandoned weapon whenever they want without losing the squad.
I am mentioning ammo because Soviets don't float ammo @ the start of the game when conscripts are semi-useful. Usually abandoned weapons don't just sit around for picking up without fight for it, fight for which conscripts are not capable after first few min. You are right, using semi-useless conscripts as slow moving reinforcement unit for support weapons is fantastic ability opposed to inf halftruck.
Only useful in the first few minutes for capping? Conscripts are good for capping even in the late game. Why waste a frontline Guard/Shock squad or an Engineer squad to cap a point when a conscript can do it instead (and faster too with Oorah, if there are multiple points to cap)? This allows the rest of your forces to keep to the offensive, which is what Soviets are best at.
Assuming that LMG PG's or scout car won't attempt to deny conscripts point, sound like fantastically versatile and capable unit.
If you like them so much, then play Soviets and use them. Don't compare conscripts with Germans. I would much rather have guards on the field or shocks than conscripts even if it means I have to capture AT gun with shocks.....
5 Sep 2013, 03:27 AM
#54
Posts: 170
No it was never refuted and I provided evidence that proven conscripts are weaker, a measly 2 extra men does not change that. Guards are 360 manpower and 30mp to reinforce. You can not use them as your main infantry. Conscripts are useless and with the recent changes to the at grenades makes their situation even worst.
What evidence did you provide that proves conscripts are weaker?
What part of BOTH CONSCRIPTS AND GRENADIERS HAVE AN EFFECTIVE 640 HP do you not understand?
5 Sep 2013, 04:36 AM
#55
Posts: 760
I already explained and that combined with the dps sheets which can be found on the forums also show their pathetic dps.
5 Sep 2013, 04:41 AM
#56
Posts: 170
I already explained and that combined with the dps sheets which can be found on the forums also show their pathetic dps.
Explained what? Explain it again.
I'm also one of the co-authors on the dps sheets, so yea, I know exactly what you're talking about.
5 Sep 2013, 05:09 AM
#57
Posts: 598
No it was never refuted and I provided evidence that proven conscripts are weaker, a measly 2 extra men does not change that. Guards are 360 manpower and 30mp to reinforce. You can not use them as your main infantry. Conscripts are useless and with the recent changes to the at grenades makes their situation even worst.
evidence? what evidence? you provided no evidence of your own and you are asking us for proof? you just gave one long statement about conscripts being the weaker unit but you have provided no proof.
5 Sep 2013, 05:14 AM
#58
Posts: 598
only a fool would attempt to fight it out vs scout car with conscripts, let alone vs PiV.....so much for conscripts utility value in later game
Throwing one AT nade on Piv will most likely cost 100+ MP + ammo (often entire squad) AT nade that doesn't do much damage at all 90% of time
Useful only in first few minutes for capping
End of argument for me
90 percent of the time? one AT nade have 110 penetration, a panzer IV armor has 160 armor. that is 68 percent chance of damaging the engine. you should work on your math. even if the AT nade didn't penetrate it will still do 80 damage. keep in mind that conscripts also have oorah so they could hit enemy tanks with at nades more easier than a grenadier could with their panzerfausts.
5 Sep 2013, 05:23 AM
#59
Posts: 950 | Subs: 1
I already explained and that combined with the dps sheets which can be found on the forums also show their pathetic dps.
you do realize the dps listed is per entity, right? so grens get 4x that and cons get 6x that. which means they have nearly identical dps. also, its been said multiple times but maybe you need to get it again. every ENTITY has the same amount of hp. so grens have 320 hp compared to the cons 480 hp. thats why 1.5 armor evens it out.
5 Sep 2013, 06:35 AM
#60
Posts: 829
90 percent of the time? one AT nade have 110 penetration, a panzer IV armor has 160 armor. that is 68 percent chance of damaging the engine. you should work on your math. even if the AT nade didn't penetrate it will still do 80 damage. keep in mind that conscripts also have oorah so they could hit enemy tanks with at nades more easier than a grenadier could with their panzerfausts.
What maths are you talking about? Maths you are talking about works only on paper in vacuum situation.
Where is the maths on RNG, Conscripts being raped by PIV or run over before you can even throw the nade. There are other units on the field as well that will rape oorah Conscripts.
I am talking here about practicality of attempting to throw AT nade on Piv or scout. And tho your 'vacuum maths' says otherwise, in reality it will cost a lot of MP to attempt to do so with very limited success. So yeah, 90% of the time conscripts wont be able to disable Piv engine
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