Give me a reason why KV8 is OP?

Any other vehicle in the game, even an Ostwind you can delay long enough to get some emergency AT usually without losing any units. Any competent player that catches opponent off guard with a KV8 is going to kill half his units before he can field a counter.

Exactly this. There is no time for stalling when the kv8 rolls out, and it will often follow you into your base killing 2/3 squads and maybe an at-gun. You might think you are in a good position vs tanks when you got one or 2 paks and a schrek squad, but the kv will maul them all. Sure you can then get a p4/stug, but the kv is just a tad too good at killing infantry thats all. Maybe buff its AT 45mm cannon ever so slightly if needed, but nerf the flame damage.

The biggest issue with the unit is killing squads on retreat which is NOT an issue with the unit but instead an issue with COH2's retreat modifiers which are incredibly weak compared to COH1. It needs to be fixed...

I love when Ostheer players complain about kv-8. Finally something they can be annoyed by, it's payback for the 3 mg opening I'm starting to see.

Exactly this. There is no time for stalling when the kv8 rolls out

maybe this is not clear for you: when you see the kv8 and you haven't the right stuff to face it you have to insta-retreat.
what I see all the time is people going "let's see what happens and then maybe when it's down to one man I'll retreat my squad": wrong.
Germans players aren't used to do something like this because their units are too flexible ("mmm....lemme check my grenadiers abilities, have they got one to instagib heavy tanks...nope...maybe I can upgrade them..."), while soviets have to do that A LOT (forgot to add the strafe run to the stuff forcing insta-retreat).
Again, the reason you find the KV8 so annoying is that soviets don't really have anything that kills infantry so it might seem a little strange to see your masses of grens die.
Personally I find it stranger that to deal with infantry properly soviets have to rely on a doctrinal/high cp unit and I find strange that german infantry can still swarm and dominate the field against both Infantry and Tanks with LMGS and shrecks even in late game

maybe this is not clear for you: when you see the kv8 and you haven't the right stuff to face it you have to insta-retreat.
what I see all the time is people going "let's see what happens and then maybe when it's down to one man I'll retreat my squad": wrong.
Germans players aren't used to do something like this because their units are too flexible ("mmm....lemme check my grenadiers abilities, have they got one to instagib heavy tanks...nope...maybe I can upgrade them..."), while soviets have to do that A LOT (forgot to add the strafe run to the stuff forcing insta-retreat).
Again, the reason you find the KV8 so annoying is that soviets don't really have anything that kills infantry so it might seem a little strange to see your masses of grens die.
Personally I find it stranger that to deal with infantry properly soviets have to rely on a doctrinal/high cp unit and I find strange that german infantry can still swarm and dominate the field against both Infantry and Tanks with LMGS and shrecks even in late game

T-70s have probably the best anti-infantry in the game for cost. T-34s have very good anti-infantry. Soviet snipers have great anti-infantry. Clown cars have good anti-infantry. Katyushas have pretty good anti-infantry.

The KV-8's cost for what it does is far too low. Compared to its approximate counterpart the Brummbar especially.

The problem with the KV-8 is how long it "fires" for. In one barrage it can kill an entire squad which doesn't give them any time to retreat. It should kill at most 3 guys leaving the last a chance to get away but decrewing any support weapons stupid enough to stay..

This coming from someone who plays mostly soviets.

maybe this is not clear for you: when you see the kv8 and you haven't the right stuff to face it you have to insta-retreat.
what I see all the time is people going "let's see what happens and then maybe when it's down to one man I'll retreat my squad": wrong.
Germans players aren't used to do something like this because their units are too flexible ("mmm....lemme check my grenadiers abilities, have they got one to instagib heavy tanks...nope...maybe I can upgrade them..."), while soviets have to do that A LOT (forgot to add the strafe run to the stuff forcing insta-retreat).
Again, the reason you find the KV8 so annoying is that soviets don't really have anything that kills infantry so it might seem a little strange to see your masses of grens die.
Personally I find it stranger that to deal with infantry properly soviets have to rely on a doctrinal/high cp unit and I find strange that german infantry can still swarm and dominate the field against both Infantry and Tanks with LMGS and shrecks even in late game

The problem is, you have to insta mass retreat if it finds a bunch of your guys. The even bigger problem is, even if you retreat the very second you see it, it still follows your squad(s) to your base, and kills absolutely everything. I think as said above, the burst duration and range (and perhaps the dps) of the flames is too large.

It has twice the killing power of a brummbar vs inf, it has more armor(240 KV vs brumm 200) more hp(960 KV vs brumm 800) while being faster and it costs just a little more than an ostwind.

Cost comparison:
KV = 360mp, 135 fuel; It also doesn't require a building, comes at 4cp's.
Brumm = 520mp, 170 fuel + teching costs(600mp, 155 fuel), thus total = 1120mp, 325fuel.(assuming you dont build other buildings)

Note:
Why is the brummbar the closest comparison to the KV8? Cos the germans dont have any tank that can kill infantry that fast, and the brumm is the only dedicated AI heavy tank. Ostwind has about the infantry killing of a t70(maybe less but ostwind is a bit tougher in terms of hp and armor). Flame Halftrack, well that is a litte better than an m3+flamer or comparable to the m5+quad50, but not comparable to the kv at all.

I know what it costs ffs. I was referring to late game, which often happens when both players are of similiar skill. Not everyone base rush suicides with it(and loses it to a mine+schreks+pak or w/e), it can be very deadly when used with support and to deny capping, thats what i was saying. (a base rush can also work against an under-prepared german player though).

If the russian rushes it, it can freely roam the map, (denying capping). He then keeps it alive while teching to su85. The german will get a counter out-p4/stug (not pak lol cos kv8 eats paks for breakfast). However, if the german doesnt manage to kill the kv8(due to soviet player not being a dumbass and not over-extending), it becomes even more deadly used in combination with the su85. It will also probably have killed a couple of schrek squads in the mean time, meaning that the german hasn't got an answer to the su85(which will eat his t3 tanks).

No-one can deny that it shouldn't be able to chase down two or three pgren squads on retreat and kill all of them.

It certainly isn't overwhelmingly OP, but it sure as hell needs a small nerf to flame damage(especially vs retreating) or a slight cost increase. Neither the crocodile nor the churchill was that powerful.

Well, don't get me wrong. I get steam coming from my ears as well when I press retreat and my unit decides its good idea to hold their hands and sing a song for a sec or two, before deciding to run into each other and whatever is nearby before running in circle on fire.

I would much rather have that ^ fixed, I have no problem with units getting roasted if they are around KV8. I think thats bigger problem (also cause of KV8 being able to roast units on retreat)

Well, don't get me wrong. I get steam coming from my ears as well when I press retreat and my unit decides its good idea to hold their hands and sing a song for a sec or two, before deciding to run into each other and whatever is nearby before running in circle on fire.

I would much rather have that ^ fixed, I have no problem with units getting roasted if they are around KV8. I think thats bigger problem (also cause of KV8 being able to roast units on retreat)

Yeah, there are two main problems, the roasting on retreat(more of a general game thing) and the cost efficiency of the KV. I also think it shouldnt kill a whole full hp squad in one burst.

As mentioned earlier by Cruzz, balance discussion does not extend past 2v2. 3v3 and 4v4 is essentially impossible to balance due to the teching design of the two factions, IMO.

I play 3v3 and 4v4 as well, so you and Cruzz can have your opinion on whats discussable or not, I discuss what I want.

You think Relic balances only for 1v1 and 2v2? well, its not true because they have patch tests of 3v3 and 4v4, whether they can balance everything and what is more important, thats different story (decided by Relic, not you, Cruzz or me)

@BabaRoga, raw: For the last time, none of us are saying that the KV-8 is a 100% game-winner at the current juncture. It however will spiral out of control once the early game is adjusted back to a more fair state once MG42 and Armored Car is nerfed (which I'm all for, but I keep those posts in their own threads), allowing Soviets a better hold on their early fuel and other sectors.

Frankly, I'm sick of patches swinging the favor of games hugely towards one faction or the other and I think you share my sentiments. Therefore, it's important for Relic to know about some of these "hidden" timebombs as well so they're balanced in the same patch. You can't honestly believe it's alright for a unit to instantly kill a infantry squad fairly consistently upon sight when one of the key points of the game is to retain infantry squads.

Agree with that, everyone is sick of constant swings. One thing fixed causes 2 other probs.

But thats expected, not a game designer but I would imagine that it would be very difficult to anticipate all issues that may arise from twitching one thing, let alone 10, 30 or 80.

Give it time, it will get balanced eventually (or close to)

Even in VCOH there was always one doctrine that was bit better or worse

Yeah, there are two main problems, the roasting on retreat(more of a general game thing) and the cost efficiency of the KV. I also think it shouldnt kill a whole full hp squad in one burst.

I said before, I faced KV8 numerous times and rarely it will roast whole squad. Not saying it doesnt happen to you, just that I didn't experienced that.

I always contributed that to RNG

Annoying yes

As far as cost efficiency, I don't lose to many games to KV8 commander and haven't been able to win that many with it. So I, personally don't see KV8 as big problem.

But again, I didn't really know how close my opponents and I were, skill wise. So it may just have been skill issue. IDK, its hard to tell without in game ranks

I had an awesome game where my KV-8 killed off 3-4 Grendier and PanzerGendier Squads, and then ran across the ice with a P4 and Panther Chasing, only to switch to Cannons and sink both the P4 and Panther into the Drink. It was a pretty lol moment....

But these complaints about it being OP, need to stop. I could do the same thing with a Russian HT and 2 Flaming Engineers inside, and have it out much earlier as well. Faust me? I'll just repair with the engineers. Kill the Engineers? I'll just reinforce them while repairing. Two Flaming Engineers give the same affect for the most part.

I had an awesome game where my KV-8 killed off 3-4 Grendier and PanzerGendier Squads, and then ran across the ice with a P4 and Panther Chasing, only to switch to Cannons and sink both the P4 and Panther into the Drink. It was a pretty lol moment....

But these complaints about it being OP, need to stop. I could do the same thing with a Russian HT and 2 Flaming Engineers inside, and have it out much earlier as well. Faust me? I'll just repair with the engineers. Kill the Engineers? I'll just reinforce them while repairing. Two Flaming Engineers give the same affect for the most part.

That's really funny. Do halftracks take 6+ shots to kill from a tank? I don't think so, buddy.

Not to mention the two engineer flamers still won't have the even half the DPS output of one KV-8. Go look at some stats before coming here and "contributing."
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApmrrrPr20ncdEpuSHcxNko1VGVFYjczYXpFZWhqOHc#gid=0

The biggest issue with the unit is killing squads on retreat which is NOT an issue with the unit but instead an issue with COH2's retreat modifiers which are incredibly weak compared to COH1. It needs to be fixed...

I have noticed this and completly agree. I feel retreating is almost a guarenteed loss of 1-2 models. Since Flame dmg is "AOE" that's why flame does so much to retreating squads.
(Also, off topic: Does Flame dmg do ANYTHING regarding to cover?!? i swear i've seen flamethrowers do almost 0 dmg to untis in buildings or in green cover. As vCOH, it was a deterrance/Counter to Building play; and did extra dmg to units in green cover.)

T-70s have probably the best anti-infantry in the game for cost.

I disagree, overall. Overall, the German Scout Car has the best anti-infantry in the game for cost. For Soviets, Probably the T-70 then but, the M3 (+quad) comes as a close contender based on suppresion being added into the mix.

I don't see how comparing a 4CP doctrine unit vs BASE UNITS is even a topic. KV8 isn't OP because it is not a reliable unit to get "at the time you need it". That's its 'Balance'. It's a heavy tank for the soviets, they only have 4 (3 are doctrine units).

KV8 hits the field same time as Ost T3 armor.

If you didnt build armor, your fucked.

It's called Laying a Teller Mine or finding a way to damage the engine, the exact same way Russians counter the Flaming HT. But clearly alot of german players are too busy buying offensive items/abilities with their munitions or something.....

Yes.

Unfortunately I dont think that Ost being forced to autoplace a Teller at his base in anticipation of a KV8, is a functional meta.

Forget about Fausting it. PaK gets one shot before being roasted, then it follows you to base and has a shashlik party.

FlameHT was triple nerfed. Survival, reload and duration.
KV8 needs the same treatment. Tbh Id shift it to 5CP.

It's called Laying a Teller Mine or finding a way to damage the engine, the exact same way Russians counter the Flaming HT. But clearly alot of german players are too busy buying offensive items/abilities with their munitions or something.....

1) Russian player floats more muni beccause he doesn't rely on them as heavily as Germans
2) Russian mines cost 35, Germans cost 60
3) Teller mines are nice to have but you are relying on luck which is not a reliable way to play
4) Mines usually get detonated if anything (mortar, rifle nade, tank shell, etc.) detonates anywhere near them