Reliable non-fuel-based AT option for Soviets?

As to the PIVs historical front armor, as of 1942-1943, 50% where fitted with an extra 30mm frontal armor, from 50 to 80mm. Hilter himself demanded them all with 80mm frontal armor as of Jan 1943.

But yeah, PTRS was a pretty serious piece of AT, if you hit in the right place.
No thanks to being within 100m of these monsters though...

Guys must have had balls of steel.

If guard squads could be upgraded to better AT role, at the cost of munitions and maybe removing button, i would have been oh so happy.

If you think thats hard, try supporting a PaK.

As to the Barrage ability, and its "dozen similar options to pick from", Ost aint got nothing but Mortar.

I am not trying to compare two AT guns or two AT capabilities. I haven't played ostheer enough to know how they fare in that department. These are only my experiences from playing Soviets VS german armor without relying on fuel. If Ostheer faces similar problems it doesn't mean that if both AT guns suck than its somehow balanced.

If Ostheer faces similar problems it doesn't mean that if both AT guns suck than its somehow balanced.

Ostheer has a faster re-load. Sov has a 6man crew and Barrage.

If guard squads could be upgraded to better AT role, at the cost of munitions and maybe removing button, i would have been oh so happy.

Guards are automatic doctrinal AT.
Its Penals that need the PTRS upgrade, instead of flamers.

After playing some games recently i have to agree that a couple of ZiS guns with T34 and conscript support can create an area denial until you get to something more offensive, like an SU85. This especially works well on Minsk pocket to camp your fuel. Still when you add an ostwind to the mix your position is under serious danger since ZiS still wont hit and/or penetrate half the time.

My point is that i would much rather prefer ZiS to be a hard armor counter than it having 2 abilities and six man crews. I still _have_ to support this multi-purpose hard-to-kill AT gun just as i would have compared to a german PaK gun. So if i still have to do this why should i sacrifice solid AT capability? I just see no point in that. Barrage ability _is_ useful, but soviets have a dozen similar options to pick from. And when facing armor you need solid AT much much more.

I think they work as a hard armour counter. They're not offensive tank chasers like the SU-85 (which is still fairly OP in my view) but they can get a pretty good creep going and they synergise really well with the rest of the Soviet army (so, barrage to clear houses and MGs, extra sight ability on vet is pretty helpful when you suspect shenanigans). I think it needs less support and is less of a liability than the PAK right now, and the six men also makes it generally better at its AT role.

Ostwinds are really the only thing that can ruin their day right now, which is kind of inevitable if you don't have specific target tables. Again, compared to how badly the PAK-40 deals with T-70s (badly), T-34s (mixed), KV-8s (terribly), SU-85s (alright but not great), the ZiS seems to be in an alright spot to me right now. Making them cheaper I think would be too spammable, making them higher damage seems a bit risky when the survivability's so good. The PAK needs something else, I think, atm the vet ability's the main thing going for it and it's pretty hard to actually get the vet because it's so likely to get decrewed.

Edit: just seen your last posts - in short, I think the ZiS is pretty good (i.e. reliable, more or less) at AT and very useful for support, while the PAK's AT is lackluster against most of the things you want it against and it has no support capacity. Would support the PAK being a bit cheaper (like, 300/320) and a bit higher damage to discourage the anti-infantry tanks from just trying to take it head on.

Ostheer has a faster re-load. Sov has a 6man crew and Barrage.



Guards are automatic doctrinal AT.
Its Penals that need the PTRS upgrade, instead of flamers.

How about the RPG-6 anti-tank grenade? If the conscripts AT nade is anything to go by, that definitely isnt the RPG-6. The RPG-6 could penetrate up to 100mm thick armor.
Leave the Penals as they are. The grenade should be given to Guards AND Shock troops. Since most doctrines contain one or the other unit, doctrinal choice becomes less of an issue. The distinctions between the two units still remains - Shocks are assault troops with smoke / nades and Guards have the PTRS, DP40 and the ability to button. The grenades are bought (like shrecks) rather than having a muni cost per use. They would have a cooldown timer to balance it out - this way they can't be spammed. The nade will have the SAME damage as the PZG shreck and will be unlockable at Tier 3.

TLDR; RPG-6 AT nade on guards and shocks. Same damage as shreck.

The zis is great at imo. It's just not mobile.

@brkl: I respect your opinion, and your right to express it. But its flat out wrong.

Out of curiosity, do you know how much Shrek costs?

lol@Schrek on Penals/Guards.

When you lower them to 4 members and remove any vehicles snares, have at it.

@brkl: I respect your opinion, and your right to express it. But its flat out wrong.

Out of curiosity, do you know how much Shrek costs?

120 munitions if memory serves me correctly (other than the reduction in anti-infantry effectiveness). What issues do you forsee with a 120 munitions purchase on guards / shocks for a free/cheap ability on a cooldown timer? There's still a risk / reward factor here in requiring the units to leave cover to nade.

lol@Schrek on Penals/Guards.

When you lower them to 4 members and remove any vehicles snares, have at it.

4 members for shocks is fine as they would serve a dual purpose like PZG.

Guards don't have similar anti-infantry effectiveness. You obviously couldn't snare the vehicle and close the gap unless you had two squads.
The unit is still forced to leave cover and close the distance without an ability like oorah to nade the tank. PZG are able to remain in cover and fire with a shreck.

I'm not biased here. I play both sides. I'm just trying to think outside the box to an obvious issue at the moment.

I'm just trying to think outside the box to an obvious issue at the moment.

The issue can be fixed with a PTRS upgrade on non-doctrinal Penals.

I think you overestimate what PTRS can do to vehicles nullist; 40 damage and 85 pen vs 120 damage and 170 pen on a shreck. Double their damages for two weapons of course. PTRS only really work in heavier vehicles because you get button on the same unit to keep it there. Guards that do not button a IV or ostwind get slaughtered, penal would drop even faster and have almost no killing power without button.

Personally, zis is fine. A price drop would be great. If it hits an ostwind it will penetrate 100% of the time and it has the same accuracies as any other tank gun.

The utility of a Guard squad is light vehicle deterrent and vehicle snare. 2 Guard squads well placed can kill a tank that over extends itself very easily. They can also nullify and deter tanks in many engagements.

Soviets are in dire need of reliable PzIV removal. The T-34 may be ok for 1v1 now, but in 2on2 where PzIV's pop in packs of two, you simply can't keep up with the german's armor capacity.