Ostruppen having an MP40 upgrade

The proposal is that Ostruppen could swap all their K98ks for MP40s, and their fausts for stick grenades for a 40 muni package after getting BP2.

Their performance will be similar to Pioneers. They will be absolutely terrible for attacking anything while moving, but no longer suffer the no-cover penalties regular Ostruppen have.

Compared to assault grens, they have inferior per-model DPS and they can neither sprint nor do a grenade assault, but can still build trenches and bunkers. On crewing weapons, they keep the MP40s.


Well, as silly as it sounds... Let me further explain.

In an offensive, Ostruppen don't have an AI ability that allows them to clear positions efficiently, and the lack of grenades and CQC ability could easily be exploited by a ppsh conscript squad or two merely diving into Ostruppen and hitting the dirt while incurring minimal losses due to their inferior close-range performance and inability to dislodge them with grenades.

The idea behind this is to swap their long-range upgrade for a short-range one that allows Ostruppen to be used more aggressively in exchange for trading their AT snare for a grenade ability.

Thoughts?

I know you put in a few minor differences with Assgrens but to me this is just still too much overlap.

Ost need a fodder unit and Ostruppen fill that role ok, if it ain't broken don't fix it.

I feel like one of the main points of ostruppen is that they aren’t really capable of being offensive for balance reasons. The fact that you can have so many of them for so cheap makes up for that though.

But it'll be balanced by the fact they no can no longer snare.

And since they're fodder units, they could be used similarly to ppsh cons with none of the utility from extra upgrades, oorah even the merge squads.

Honestly, it's just an extra option to at least shave off some models from a shock troop initiating cqc behind 3 squads, or gives them the ability to swarm Guards who will outshoot them 1 to 3 while they use LMGs with no means of countering Hit the Dirt.

Aren't ostroppen like 200mp? They shouldn't be a match up for Soviet elite squads nor even ppsh cons given that the upgrade is now the same cost as a bloody lmg given how the exact same price difference (40mp and 60mu) leaves grens absolutely helpless against Tommy's and rifles

Assault Grenadiers is already what you're looking for. Why create duplicate option?
I can see your point, I just disagree that there should be "offensive option" for a defensive unit if there is already pretty much the same unit.

Even though the meta has not settled yet, ostruppen doctrine is one of the top contenders for meta doctrine of new patch. What OP suggests is changing them so that they can counter a build that is currently their counter build. Which would make the doctrine even more dominant.

Even though the meta has not settled yet, ostruppen doctrine is one of the top contenders for meta doctrine of new patch. What OP suggests is changing them so that they can counter a build that is currently their counter build. Which would make the doctrine even more dominant.

You have a fair point in that Ostruppen doc is popular, however you have to realize that Hit the Dirt is a cost-free counter to a unit that requires numerous squads to become effective.

A 600MP + 135MU investment should not be easily countered by a 340(or was it 360?)MP unit with a 90MU upgrade using a completely free ability.

Despite the pluses of having a grenade ability and the removal of their no-cover penalties, they are still cheap infantry with positive received accuracy modifiers. On the approach, they're far more vulnerable than pioneers with only a bit more DPS. If they are used defensively from long range, they would be outgunned as their SMGs are only effective at close range.

They would be extremely situational as the attrition rate would negate less-than-ideal tactics, and an over-reliance on grenades to compensate would starve the player of munitions.

Considering that volks armed with MP40s also share a similar crisis of MP40s or STGs, it could be used as a bit of a case study- But on far more inferior infantry with less utility.

I actually don’t think it’d be that OP per se (though I could see it leading to some mad ostruppen blobbing), but at the same time, ost already has what you’re looking for. Pgrens are nondoctrinal cqc units that do a great job defending against other cqcs and at flanking mgs and stuff, and on the doctrinal side you have assault grens and stormtroopers doing more or less the same thing. G43 grens are also an honorable mention for good cqc dps.

The thing with doctrinal cqc units/upgrades "as a cqc solution" is that the Ostruppen doctrine tends to be something picked at the game's beginning. That means there are no other options aside from Ostruppen and vanilla Ost units.

This is because players benefit the most from the doctrine because you can get more squads up early in the game to cover more ground- Which is pretty much the core of Ostruppen strategy.

As for non-doctrinal options like PGrens, sure. However, the point of this suggestion is to allow you to convert existing Ostruppen into cheap CQC infantry that trades their vehicle snare to become more effective against their cost-free counters: Hit the Dirt and garrisons.

OST has arguably the earliest and hardest hitting solution to garrisons and static infantry in the flame halftrack so I don't really buy that they need a 6 man assault squad to have a go. Also the only thing more grenade magnety than hit the dirt is tactical advance(?) that slows down retreats. It's strong but has clear cut drawbacks

If you want a CQC option why would you ever go osttruppen?

Isn't that specifically why ass grens exist?

OST has arguably the earliest and hardest hitting solution to garrisons and static infantry in the flame halftrack so I don't really buy that they need a 6 man assault squad to have a go. Also the only thing more grenade magnety than hit the dirt is tactical advance(?) that slows down retreats. It's strong but has clear cut drawbacks

While it is true that the flame halftrack hits hard when it first arrives on the field and synergizes well with Ostruppen, it scales worse later on when the enemy team has a sufficient amount of AT available. With infantry, they scale a bit better late game when there's an abundance of yellow cover.

If you want a CQC option why would you ever go osttruppen?

Isn't that specifically why ass grens exist?

No no, the point is that Ostruppen doc is something used immediately. A proactive doctrine choice rather than a reactive choice in the beginning of the game primarily because you want more Ostruppen squads running about capping points. And since you picked the doctrine, doctrinal solutions don't apply.

Maybe Osttruppen doctrine could be different - it could give grens a choice of 2 upgrade packages:

1) Assault package - turns them into Assgrens (pay 40 MP and 40 Muni)

2) Rags and Rocks package - turns them into Osttruppen. (pay 10 MP, 10 Muni and 10 gas)

I’d rather see ostruppen have DP-28 upgrade instead of an LMG42. It suits them thematically because the Germans made heavy use of captured machineguns (they captured quite a lot of DP-28s) and usually issued them out to less well equipped troops like the osttruppen depicted in game.

It adds flavor, makes them more diverse, allows them to be balanced without sharing the Grenadier’s same LMG and is interesting historically.

Consider that it could also be balanced in a way that makes them more than just shitty, but cheap grenadier replacements. They could have one or two DP-28s and have the rest of their rifles balanced against the power of the DP-28 instead of the LMG42.


Just a new idea in a sea of sameness. Lol

No no, the point is that Osttruppen doc is something used immediately. A proactive doctrine choice rather than a reactive choice in the beginning of the game primarily because you want more Osttruppen squads running about capping points. And since you picked the doctrine, doctrinal solutions don't apply.

They absolutely do. Picking any doctrine is meant to be a tradeoff and instalocking it doesn't change that.

Osttruppen doctrine for example gives you an overwhelming number of infantry at the start of the game. The tradeoff is that they're Osttruppen.

Yea I think everyone that reads the post, immediately think "Why not just go with assault grenediers?"

The fact that the artillery fire can not be used without the fog of war is very stupid. Yes, this commander has lighting shells. But I repeat several times - This commander has a bug that the lighting shells are not working. But all do not care.

sorry was wrong with the topic

No no, the point is that Ostruppen doc is something used immediately. A proactive doctrine choice rather than a reactive choice in the beginning of the game primarily because you want more Ostruppen squads running about capping points. And since you picked the doctrine, doctrinal solutions don't apply.

Eeeee, like ass grens don't have 0cp so they can't be used immediately.

The unit you describe is already in game, it's called assault grenadiers and has the utilities as you describe. Plus close range squad is already in ostruppen commander, it's a field officer. Ostruppen never needed a mp40 and they will never get one