Firefly need to be cheaper

??? you said it makes no difference against medium armour... It makes THE MOST difference against medium armour

It does not make any difference vs medium armor, only vs panther and above.

It does negate jp4s vet 2 bonus does it not?

vipper if you're going to use stats from almost two years ago I can do the same with any unit and claim they are balanced or OP (also to build off what firesparks said you used the same old stats on commander upgrade, it's been nerfed a while now).

when you get proven wrong 5mins later by the actual statistics it makes your argument rather weak to say the least. I see you are stills scrambling to defend your point yet ignoring the great survivability the JP gets in comparison to the FF. FF still remains a glass canon until the end, im fine with this.

But it needs to be brought down to JP price, either that or reduce cost of tulips.

It does negate jp4s vet 2 bonus does it not?

True that.

I'd rather a price reduction than a tulip reduction. That would be by all accounts really awful to play against

@firesparks

what kind of buffs do you propose other then a price decrease?



because any other buffs like ROF buff what make the FF OP

I think just a price decrease will be fine. Then we can see what happen.

I'd rather a price reduction than a tulip reduction. That would be by all accounts really awful to play against

I would actually like to see the tulip rocket dealing 80 dmg per rocket, but the Firefly cost go down to 350 mp 130 fuel 12 pop and the tulip ability cost go down to 45 munition. This make the Firefly a cost effective TD despite its shortcoming.

It does negate jp4s vet 2 bonus does it not?

It work both ways. The 200 damage on the FF "negate" the jp4 vet 2 bonus, but the jp4 vet 2 bonus "negate" the FF vet 3 bonus.

The 160 hp bonus means the 800 HP jp4 will still take 4 hits from a vet 3 FF to kill.


On the other hand the jp4 vet 2 bonus does mean it remain a 4 hit kill against the vet 3 firefly.

FF 2x200 + 2x120 = 640

A firefly can kill a medium with 1 reload, landing 2 Tulips or with 2 Piat hits.

A vet 3 FF does 240 damage 3x240 = 720 and thus kills a medium in 3 shots.

It makes quite a difference vs Meduims.

Go look at the UTT video I posted. Some of the best players in the game had trouble landing both tulip hit on a King Tiger. Even in Shadow's video, the axis player made the mistake of broadsiding his panther to the tulip.

Landing both hits is a lot more difficult then you suggest. It's not a tracking shot, there's a delay, and the rocket rails are off center on the side of the sherman's turret.

in addition, the Tulip no longer completely stun, and the movement debuff only last for 2.5 seconds. The panther in shadow's video managed to back way from the Firefly despite having take both side, but made the mistake of stopping too close to the FF for repair.

The scenario you're describing is extremely unlikely. It doesn't happen often enough to be reliable or help the british, but its mere possibility become the perfect excuse to not make the FF cheaper. The Tulip is the perfect boogeyman to be used.

did u count the 200 damage or did u miss it ?

dps = damage per second

so, yes the value take into account the 200 damage, as well as the 8 seconds reload.

Try this with a JP4

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/261489406

brits tanks in a nutshell:

- FF kill almost a panther in 2sec....
> kill it with the next shot..
- centaur wipe rakten crew in 1sec with sniping shots...


and then the forum tell us that brits tanks are to weak. You never played the german version from TD and the ostwind, right? a panther wouldn´t killed by 2 stugs in this time...and a ostwind wouldn´t kill a rakten in this time.

brits tanks in a nutshell:

- FF kill almost a panther in 2sec....
> kill it with the next shot..
- centaur wipe rakten crew in 1sec with sniping shots...


and then the forum tell us that brits tanks are to weak. You never played the german version from TD and the ostwind, right? a panther wouldn´t killed by 2 stugs in this time...and a ostwind wouldn´t kill a rakten in this time.

case in point about tulip being the perfect boogeyman, providing an excuse to keep Firefly overpriced.


Shadow's success in the video is not the norm.

case in point about tulip being the perfect boogeyman, providing an excuse to keep Firefly overpriced.


Shadow's success in the video is not the norm.

Why do you think its not the norm? its is the not that big luck to get first hit on a panther with FF and shot the 2 tulips on it...its only need some micro...but not that much.
and than is the panther nearly down and when you support your ff ...its down...in a blink of a eye. try this with stug...and show us.

and the centaur...yeah...rakten crew are crap..but this tank kill so accurate...ostwind cry in a corner.

when i play with FF its not that hard to kill the german heavys...you can yolo with FF and jackson and kill them...because they are slow and and you kit them. 2-3 from allie TD eat everything.

Why do you think its not the norm? its is the not that big luck to get first hit on a panther with FF and shot the 2 tulips on it...its only need some micro...but not that much.
and than is the panther nearly down and when you support your ff ...its down...in a blink of a eye. try this with stug...and show us.

and the centaur...yeah...rakten crew are crap..but this tank kill so accurate...ostwind cry in a corner.

did you saw video and actually see what happened?

the panther literally turned 90 degree and shove its cheek right into the patch of the rocket. Then he decided to park just out of range of a FF.

The match was looking bad for the axis player in general, but he did the worst thing possible.


compared to


https://youtu.be/9yaMXWb-NqQ?t=44m5s
https://youtu.be/9yaMXWb-NqQ?t=40m40s

in both case the one of the tulip rocket missed a King Tiger, one of the biggest target in the game.

players don't make a habit of presenting their wide side against a tulip firefly.

It work both ways. The 200 damage on the FF "negate" the jp4 vet 2 bonus, but the jp4 vet 2 bonus "negate" the FF vet 3 bonus.

Except for the fact that the FF can easily do 80 damage at the click of a button which brings the 4 shot kill to a 3 shot kill. In this one limited scenario, the 240 damage is still a plus.

https://youtu.be/9yaMXWb-NqQ?t=44m5s

i seen a FF and a centaur wich are easily defence alone a VP vs a KT and a volks and gren. Mission accomplished.

What do you expect? That the FF kill alone the KT? (when you look..the KT falled to half healt in a blink of a eye...) not enough? than get 2x FF and kill a KT with no skill

vipper if you're going to use stats from almost two years ago I can do the same with any unit and claim they are balanced or OP (also to build off what firesparks said you used the same old stats on commander upgrade, it's been nerfed a while now).

when you get proven wrong 5mins later by the actual statistics it makes your argument rather weak to say the least. I see you are stills scrambling to defend your point yet ignoring the great survivability the JP gets in comparison to the FF. FF still remains a glass canon until the end, im fine with this.

But it needs to be brought down to JP price, either that or reduce cost of tulips.

If you want the updated DPS for FF and JP vs IS-2 and KT, in the live patch here they are:

sherman_firefly_76mm_mp 16.8/16.5/16.2/15.9/15.7/14.9/13.6
jagdpanzer_iv_pak_42_75mm_mp 17.1/16.6/16.2/15.8/15.4/14.9/14.5


vet 3
sherman_firefly_76mm_mp 26.62/26.17/25.71/25.26/24.80/23.55/21.50
jagdpanzer_iv_pak_42_75mm_mp 18.39/17.92/17.44/16.97/16.50/16.03

And that is without counting Tulips.

As I said FF is equal if not better than JP against heavily armored vehicles.

Go look at the UTT video I posted. Some of the best players in the game had trouble landing both tulip hit on a King Tiger. Even in Shadow's video, the axis player made the mistake of broadsiding his panther to the tulip.

Landing both hits is a lot more difficult then you suggest. It's not a tracking shot, there's a delay, and the rocket rails are off center on the side of the sherman's turret.

in addition, the Tulip no longer completely stun, and the movement debuff only last for 2.5 seconds. The panther in shadow's video managed to back way from the Firefly despite having take both side, but made the mistake of stopping too close to the FF for repair.

The scenario you're describing is extremely unlikely. It doesn't happen often enough to be reliable or help the british, but its mere possibility become the perfect excuse to not make the FF cheaper. The Tulip is the perfect boogeyman to be used.

I never suggested that landing 2 Tulip is easy, I was responding to a silly claim that the damage of FF's main gun does not matter vs medium. It simply does.

I did not describe any scenario and on the other hand you insisting to compare the DPS only of the main gun completely ignoring Tulips is misleading.

As I said FF is equal if not better than JP against heavily armored vehicles.

And that's true.

Mainly because FF is meant to go up against heavily armored vehicles, while JP4 is not, you have panther for that.

Now then, wouldn't similar vet0 performance state that one of them is op or up here?

And that's true.

Mainly because FF is meant to go up against heavily armored vehicles, while JP4 is not, you have panther for that.

Now then, wouldn't similar vet0 performance state that one of them is op or up here?

If you want to argue that FF is designed to fight heavy tanks then it simply is OP vs mediums especially at vet 3 since it has nearly 100% chance to hit and penetrate medium at range 60 and by vet 3 it will kill a medium in around 12 secs while a JP will need around 12 to 14.

And once more, as I pointed out in the parts you did not quote, comparing the DPS of the main gun and are totally ignoring the Tulip potential is misleading.

Currently in live most TDs are not designed to counter a specific type of armor (light medium heavy) and I have pointed out many time (for the last years) that the game would be in better spot if TDs where designed to be dealing with specific level of armor. Glad to see that you actually agree.

(edit to correct time to kill medium for JP)

If you want to argue that FF is designed to fight heavy tanks then it simply is OP vs mediums especially at vet 3 since it has nearly 100% chance to hit and penetrate medium at range 60 and by vet 3 it will kill a medium in around 12 secs while a JP will need around 15.5 to 18.72.

And once more, as I pointed out in the parts you did not quote, comparing the DPS of the main gun and are totally ignoring the Tulip potential is misleading.

Currently in live most TDs are not designed to counter a specific type of armor (light medium heavy) and I have pointed out many time (for the last years) that the game would be in better spot if TDs where designed to be dealing with specific level of armor. Glad to see that you actually agree.

Would you be so kind to compare FF and JP4 dps/TTK against P4 and sherman/t34 then?
Should we also include JP4 first strike vet bonus too? That If you include FF vet, I can't see how this should not be included too.

According to ullumu tulips are heat seeking and hit moving tanks 100% with no skill involved at all.

I was never informed of this change, now if only the stug didn't have a lock on turret stun ability...

Would you be so kind to compare FF and JP4 dps/TTK against P4 and sherman/t34 then?
Should we also include JP4 first strike vet bonus too? That If you include FF vet, I can't see how this should not be included too.

DPS is misleading, I already give you time to the time kill at vet 3:
FF around 12 secs while a JP will need around 12 to 14

First strike need Vet 5 tulips are vet 0 and I did not included tulips. With Tulips a FF can kill a medium tank in around 8 secs from vet 0.

Even so first strike bonus gives 200 damage that does not change the number of shots and more penetration/accuracy which again has little impact vs mediums.

The low ROF of the FF imo keeps its medium killing power at bay. Sure it hits like a truck but it's not speeding around the map nailing everything and you can usually bail and zone with an FF unlike a Jackson or su76 pack (or stugs I spose)

According to ullumu tulips are heat seeking and hit moving tanks 100% with no skill involved at all.

I was never informed of this change, now if only the stug didn't have a lock on turret stun ability...

Video footage of Tulips in action: