Firefly need to be cheaper

Im a little weary of a FF buff because of the superiour tracking skill in hammer... Plus tulips are pretty great if a bit expensive. That said i think your target of 35 fuel and 12 pop seems reasonable to me

the tracking last ten seconds, and the Firefly is slower than most tanks to begin with.

You can get a second shot if you're lucky.


beside. I'm not asking for a reload buff. 200 damage with 8s reload is fine.

440 mp 155 fuel 14 pop is borderline extortion for the FF's performance. That isn't including the tulip upgrade cost.

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You mention nothing about how its midrange modifier is well above the standard TD, which gives it insane accuracy. 12 popcap is just a big no. The unit could use a SMALL tweak in the cost department. There is no need to COMPLETELY rework the entire unit when small changes could easily fix some of its outlying issues.

the Firefly's mid range advantage is the mid range distance, not modifier, and in effect it only affect accuracy and Penetration.

secondly, Firefly isn't really more accurate in practice.

both the firefly and jp4 get .04/.05/.06 accuracy scaling. Against a 22 size target that's already a 88% hit rate at 60m. The FF will hit 100% accuracy faster, but this is the kettle calling the pot black.

If you would like to know more about TD accuracy, I made a more in-depth topic earlier:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/69042/tank-destroyers-should-be-less-accurate

the tracking last ten seconds, and the Firefly is slower than most tanks to begin with.

You can get a second shot if you're lucky.


beside. I'm not asking for a reload buff. 200 damage with 8s reload is fine.

440 mp 155 fuel 14 pop is borderline extortion for the FF's performance. That isn't including the tulip upgrade cost.




the Firefly's mid range advantage is the mid range distance, not modifier, and in effect it only affect accuracy and Penetration.

secondly, Firefly isn't really more accurate in practice.

both the firefly and jp4 get .04/.05/.06 accuracy scaling. Against a 22 size target that's already a 88% hit rate at 60m. The FF will hit 100% accuracy faster, but this is the kettle calling the pot black.

If you would like to know more about TD accuracy, I made a more in-depth topic earlier:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/69042/tank-destroyers-should-be-less-accurate

That's like me saying the JP4 alpha shot shouldn't apply because it lacks a turret and is forced to rotate which gives it a 0.5 acc debuff... in practice.

I'd like to keep the tulip as a small burst damage/View blocker.

I'd say increase the performance of the Firefly or simply reduce its costs

That's like me saying the JP4 alpha shot shouldn't apply because it lacks a turret and is forced to rotate which gives it a 0.5 acc debuff... in practice.

if we are doing direct comparison between the jp4 and the Firefly, remember that the Firefly is notably more expensive than the jp4.

You expect the Firefly to be the best tech TD in the game considering its cost, but in reality it's a OK TD compared to other TD.

Its high penetration, and Alpha is balanced by the fact it have a long reload. DPS is slow for a TD.

its turret and balanced by the slow rotational rate, and slow speed.

The Firefly is a good TD, but it isn't the best TD. Therefore the Firefly should be significantly cheaper.

380 mp 135 fuel 12/13 pop is hardly "cheap" either. That's more expensive than the regular medium tanks.

if we are doing direct comparison between the jp4 and the Firefly, remember that the Firefly is notably more expensive than the jp4.

You expect the Firefly to be the best tech TD in the game considering its cost, but in reality it's a OK TD compared to other TD.

Its high penetration, and Alpha is balanced by the fact it have a long reload.

its turret and balanced by the slow rotational rate, and slow speed.

The Firefly is a good TD, but it isn't the best TD. Therefore the Firefly should be significantly cheaper.

380 mp 135 fuel is hardly "cheap" either. That's more expensive than the regular medium tanks.

Yes, but the current "OP" TDs i.e. the jackson and StuG are not what we should be using for a buff benchmark. Like I said, a small cost tweak and it'd be golden.

Yes, but the current "OP" TDs i.e. the jackson and StuG are not what we should be using for a buff benchmark. Like I said, a small cost tweak and it'd be golden.

I still remember the stats on the old Su-85 and jackson before the buff, and what they costed.


It's not a mystery what a "balanced" TD should look like, we just need to look back. (although the old jackson did had some problem, they patch applied a wrong solution.)

Actually right now the Firefly have a reasonable performance, it is just too expensive.

and I've repeatedly cite 380 mp 135 fuel 12 pop. You keep saying "small" cost tweak and give no figure.

Weither people are using it atm or not hammer tracking could easily turn the FF OP with a shorter reload. It also comes with blitz. A snare, high damage output, speedy mode (even if it's relative) and magic vision is a recipe for abuse.
The FF seems to mostly be designed to be defensive AT which might explain the Cromwell higher than cost pen.

Unululumulumu (just kidding) quit calling timed disables a snare its not the same thing, i dont call paks stun shot a snare, guards dont snare either, a snare is what all axis call in infantry conviently have even though they are suppose to be specialized ai/ambush units that carry faust in their back pcokets and permantley wound a vehicle until it is repaired.

I still remember the stats on the old Su-85 and jackson before the buff, and what they costed.


It's not a mystery what a "balanced" TD should look like, we just need to look back. (although the old jackson did had some problem, they patch applied a wrong solution.)

Actually right now the Firefly have a reasonable performance, it is just too expensive.

and I've repeatedly cite 380 mp 135 fuel 12 pop. You keep saying "small" cost tweak and give no figure.

I'd say 380-400MP, 140F AND 14 pop!! 12 pop is outrageous for that much power and scaling. Idk why you want that so much. If the JP4 was or p4 was 12 pop then fine, they're not though.

Malcolm Reynolds disagrees.

Firefly: 25.00
jackson: 25.40
su85: 29.63
jp4: 33.68
stug: 40.00

This explains so goddamn much.

What would the SU-76 and Wolverine be?

Do you often feed your armor to firefly without ever making a meaningful push?
That is about the only way it'll see vet3.

Plus, its damage vet does ZERO difference against meds, same 4 shots - and its meant to be effective against heavies.

Vet 3 lowers the shot to kill standard mediums from 4 to 3.

Weither people are using it atm or not hammer tracking could easily turn the FF OP with a shorter reload. It also comes with blitz. A snare, high damage output, speedy mode (even if it's relative) and magic vision is a recipe for abuse.
The FF seems to mostly be designed to be defensive AT which might explain the Cromwell higher than cost pen.

??? cromwell is overpriced

I'd say 380-400MP, 140F AND 14 pop!! 12 pop is outrageous for that much power and scaling. Idk why you want that so much. If the JP4 was or p4 was 12 pop then fine, they're not though.

380 mp, 140 F, and same pop as the Jp4 (IE 14) is a good number.

Playing recently I've not found the firefly price much of an issue, manpower cost may be a little steep but I've always thought that. The firefly is definitely an investment, at vet 2 and above the thing is a beast, perhaps now that you mention it, it could do with going back down to 145 fuel. Honestly though, the thing grinds vet so quickly against panthers and tigers cos it doesn't bounce often and is more accurate than the jackson, honestly if you struggle to get it vetted, you must be using it wrong.

The vet damage buff believe it or not is good, damaging something in this patch is almost as good as killing it unless they have 3 squads of upgraded sturmpioneers is gonna take them ages to fix.

The most valid point for decreasing the price I would say is because of how good the 6 pounder is, only real reason to get a firefly is for when you're against heavy artillery or for snaring for your 6 pdr. Churchill is a much better use of fuel atm.

-And yeah comet is just a more expensive cromwell right now, can't penetrate the front of a panther with either so what's the point in spending more fuel.

...
the Firefly's mid range advantage is the mid range distance, not modifier, and in effect it only affect accuracy and Penetration.

secondly, Firefly isn't really more accurate in practice.

both the firefly and jp4 get .04/.05/.06 accuracy scaling. Against a 22 size target that's already a 88% hit rate at 60m. The FF will hit 100% accuracy faster, but this is the kettle calling the pot black.

If you would like to know more about TD accuracy, I made a more in-depth topic earlier:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/69042/tank-destroyers-should-be-less-accurate

FF is more accurate than the JP for 2 reason:
1) Tank commander increases FF accuracy
2) Having mid range x1.5 further away means that the accuracy increase faster the closer you get.

This explains so goddamn much.

Not Really, DPS without armor and target size value and at different ranges is not a very revealing comparison.

more here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/62537/tds-vs-mediums-in-live-and-in-numbers

FF is more accurate than the JP for 2 reason:
1) Tank commander increases FF accuracy
2) Having mid range x1.5 further away means that the accuracy increase faster the closer you get.


Not Really, DPS without armor and target size value and at different ranges is not a very revealing comparison.

more here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/62537/tds-vs-mediums-in-live-and-in-numbers

if you are going to cite your chart in an arguement, you should make sure the chart is updated.

the FF accuracy value is outdated, its accuracy was nerfed to the same as the jp4.

and even the, note how Axis TD consistently outdps the allied TD. The three highest dps value in the chart at 60 is the jagdtiger, the APCR jackson, and the jp4.

the four highest at 50 is the jagdtiger, stug, APCR jackson, and jp4.

the jackson need to spend munition to temporarily achieve the kind of dps achievable natively by the Axis TD.

if you are going to cite your chart in an arguement, you should make sure the chart is updated.

the FF accuracy value is outdated, its accuracy was nerfed to the same as the jp4.

and even the, note how Axis TD consistently outdps the allied TD. The three highest dps value in the chart at 60 is the jagdtiger, the APCR jackson, and the jp4.

the four highest at 50 is the jagdtiger, stug, APCR jackson, and jp4.

the jackson need to spend munition to temporarily achieve the kind of dps achievable natively by the Axis TD.

JP and FF have the same accuracy values bad FF get 110% bonus from the commander and it has a mid value 150% bigger than JP making more accurate.

At range 60 FF has an accuracy of 0.044 while JP has an accuracy of 0.04, at range 45 firefly has an accuracy of 0.055 while the JP of 0.045. Firefly is simply more accurate than the JP.

I agree that the firefly needs something as right now it does feel like the weakest TD for the cost. Perhaps a cost reduction as suggested, although 135 fuel seems a little low. I would rather the tulip rockets cost be reduced and/or the initial upgrade cost be reduced/made free.Using tulip rockets is the only way to keep the firefly competitive against stugs and jagdpanzers and really burns through your munitions.

I often find myself without enough muni to lay mines (necessary imo since the brits lack a non-doc snare) and consequently leaves the opponents free to rush in with double stugs and melt your firefly faster than you can say "mortar pits suck now"

JP and FF have the same accuracy values bad FF get 110% bonus from the commander and it has a mid value 150% bigger than JP making more accurate.

At range 60 FF has an accuracy of 0.044 while JP has an accuracy of 0.04, at range 45 firefly has an accuracy of 0.055 while the JP of 0.045. Firefly is simply more accurate than the JP.

none of which is properly represented in your outdated chart. Even with the high accuracy the FF's dps is still substantially lower than the jp4.

the tank commander is also another upgrade that add to the Firefly's already expensive cost.

This wouldn't be an issue if the Firefly isn't the most expensive tech TD in the game.

none of which is properly represented in your outdated chart. Even with the high accuracy the FF's dps is still substantially lower than the jp4.

the tank commander is also another upgrade that add to the Firefly's already expensive cost.

This wouldn't be an issue if the Firefly isn't the most expensive tech TD in the game.

DPS = RoF. That has nothing to do with accuracy, target size, cost, utility, turret, damage and vet. If we were just going off DPS the StuG should win any tank v tank fight EVER