(SBP) Bren Guns

Do you know WHY the cheapest infantry get that weapon? Its because they are and only ever will be 4 men. They have that weapon so that despite their small squad size they can continue to fight as without it dps falls by 25% per model (of whom are easier to hit AND more expensive to replace than tommies btw) tommies dont have that problem becauae they can diffuse the 4 man squad problem.

I think weapon racks and 5 man squads should be mutually exclusive. If thats the case keep brens big and strong, but as long as they get throw on another model (with health, a gun and presenting another target to disperse incoming damage) theres no reason for the bren to be MUCH more than a fancy model.you cant have an inferiour squad inferiour 100% of the time in literally every single way and call it balance. Let okw start with obers and lets see how that balance goes. Same thing, just a smaller scale with tommies.

You're taking the design by the wrong end, Brit Tommies are designed to be 5men squad from start thus their expensive price from start. In order to balance them early game, they've been reduce to 4men squad. If Tommies were meant to be 4men squad per design at that same price, Ostheer sniper and mortar would have received the hammer nerf slam at Brit release (which would have broken SOV/OST matchup).

There is no magic here, You can't have Gren and volks at the same level than Rifle and Tommies because of price and faction design. Dual weapon for Rifles and Tommies are meant to be soft cap and give Gren and Volks some mid-game advantages before USF/UKF being able to dual equip all their squads.

What the hell are you talking about? Sappers are locked behind tech. How do they help you with capping? Have you ever played Brits? Or just talking non-sense from your Axis point of view?

Brit teching is pretty quick. You will have the fuel after their 3rd unit (whatever it may be) so sappers are plenty viable...or do you not build any units after you have 3 units being any combo of mg/infantry/LV? And in live tommys cap territory faster than other squads (because why wouldnt they right? Brits and all)

Brit teching is pretty quick. You will have the fuel after their 3rd unit (whatever it may be) so sappers are plenty viable...or do you not build any units after you have 3 units being any combo of mg/infantry/LV? And in live tommys cap territory faster than other squads (because why wouldnt they right? Brits and all)

It is, but its not menpower free, brits as opposed to USF do not get any free squads, but also have most expensive mainline inf, have lesser early game presence, which now is going to be even lower due to cap rate removal and these first T2 resources, especially against wehr, need to be allocated in countering light vehicle or a sniper, both being additional strain on the menpower.

You can get sappers quick if you rush them, but then 222 or sniper will roflstomp you.

lets calc who would pay more:

ost player who build 1x gren and must refresh 200 models

or

UKF player who build 1x IS and must refresh 200 model


and than let them fight: grens with 1x LMG and IS with 5models and double vickers

lets calc who would pay more:

ost player who build 1x gren and must refresh 200 models

or

UKF player who build 1x IS and must refresh 200 model


and than let them fight: grens with 1x LMG and IS with 5models and double vickers

I am going to throw an anchor of reality on you here and remind you that in an intense 1v1 both of these factions would lose around 100 models of ALL infantry types, 120 would be very high casualties.

200 models can realistically die in exclusive conscript or osttruppen build. Anything else is venturing into imaginationland.

you would even by 100models see that the IS are not expansive like you and other want to sell us...they have maybe a higher build price tag...but their refresh is very cheap compared to their elite unit performanche which is like a ober

Well, you're not going to even out within first 10 minutes, are you?
There are also these things called side costs, pop cap and upkeep which you have for whatever reason chosen to completely ignore.

And the word you are looking for is "reinforce" and it comes together with "cost", which is perfectly balanced as you seem to be in denial about what squad size tommies are balanced around and that, as already mentioned, is 5 man.

So snowflake, what is more expensive? Reinforcing full grens or reinforcing full tommies?

3x30 or 4x28?

Do the math.

When it comes to reinforcement cost and small arms fire, looking simply at cost to fully reinforce is misleading.

Once has to take into account cost per entity and effective HP per entity.

100x30 + 240 = 3240
100x28 + 280 = 3080

you see: you safe 140MP when you REFRESH (yes..this is the word i use) 100times. AND on top of that you can get with this cheap unit a performanche on obers lvl. Nice, huh?

Calc 100 refresh from obers or fallis or panzergrens...and than come back and cry that IS are expansive (lul)

When it comes to reinforcement cost and small arms fire, looking simply at cost to fully reinforce is misleading.

Once has to take into account cost per entity and effective HP per entity.

So is pretending that you will lose 100 men of that one specific squad only while ignoring its upkeep and literally any other unit in the match.

Its not hard to pull a straw man and that's exactly what ullumulu is trying to do with his unrealistic comparison.

Pretending brits pay less for reinforcement is fundamentally false.

So is pretending that you will lose 100 men of that one specific squad only while ignoring its upkeep and literally any other unit in the match.

Its not hard to pull a straw man and that's exactly what ullumulu is trying to do with his unrealistic comparison.

Pretending brits pay less for reinforcement is fundamentally false.

When iam informed right a IS vet3 model is harder to kill as a gren model (received acc) ...so you lose faster grens models and pay more for them is right...while they have not the performanche like vet3 IS with double vickers? oh..they are really to cheap

When iam informed right a IS vet3 model is harder to kill as a gren model (received acc) ...so you lose faster grens models and pay more for them is right...while they have not the performanche like vet3 IS with double vickers? oh..they are really to cheap

Sniper started missing shots out of sudden?
HMG42 stopped suppressing?
Grenades stopped exploding?
P4 shells stared to bounce?
Mortars stopped attacking?

Any other particular reason why you believe a 240/60 squad should trade equally with a squad that costs 280/120 and had to invest 50 additional fuel and couple of hundred mp just to be able to end up in that state? Why are your grens not vet3 to nullify tommies rec acc vet? On top of that, tommies get only half of the accuracy bonus that grens get.

By the time tommies are vet3 you REALLY should have something more on field then LMG grens.
That being said, I might have found out why you struggle so much - have you ever considered building anything else then grenadiers?

Sniper started missing shots out of sudden?
HMG42 stopped suppressing?
Grenades stopped exploding?
P4 shells stared to bounce?
Mortars stopped attacking?

Any other particular reason why you believe a 240/60 squad should trade equally with a squad that costs 280/120 and had to invest 50 additional fuel and couple of hundred mp just to be able to end up in that state? Why are your grens not vet3 to nullify tommies rec acc vet? On top of that, tommies get only half of the accuracy bonus that grens get.

By the time tommies are vet3 you REALLY should have something more on field then LMG grens.
That being said, I might have found out why you struggle so much - have you ever considered building anything else then grenadiers?

you add the cost for the tech upgrading to only one IS squad? Nice try in the unrealistic szenario.
and you forget a 4model squad which must standing still to be effective have much more wiping potencial in this world of indirect fire game.
and you forget the gammombomb and arty callin from IS which has huge range so you can bomb every defence line with one single click form your mainline infantery. no doc or other unit is needed.

Personally I'm fine with them nerfing long range Acc on Brens - IMO one of the few remaining cancerous things about Brits is how obnoxious a critical mass of double Bren 5 Men Tommies A-moving is. It gets to the point where HMGs are pointless because the gunner will always get lasered down.

That being said I'm still concerned about how Brits will fare in the midgame if Tommies are getting all of their upgrades delayed by fuel gating *and* their received accuracy Vet bonus delayed. It's one of things that I feel will most need tested.

you add the cost for the tech upgrading to only one IS squad? Nice try in the unrealistic szenario.
and you forget a 4model squad which must standing still to be effective have much more wiping potencial in this world of indirect fire game.
and you forget the gammombomb and arty callin from IS which has huge range so you can bomb every defence line with one single click form your mainline infantery. no doc or other unit is needed.

Nope, but its still additional cost you conveniently ignore.

Why are you whining about grens needing to be stationary to be effective?
Do you want me to remind you how amazing tommies are on the move?

And again, your mortars went exactly where? Oh right, you never had any, because you firmly believe 4 grens directly into tiger should win you a game.

If you let tommies throw a gammon bomb on you, you might want stop watching panzer pictures on your phone during the engagements. Exact same case with brit base arty, you know, that red smoke is not your grens fart after Reich Chilly.

What straw man are you going to pull next? How grens always walk up on a mine? How green cover moves together with tommies at all times, but grens are always in red?

As entertaining as you are, please spare us, there is only so much silliness these boards can bear.

Nerf brens but reduce cost. Keep Vickers K the same. Now you have diversity. If someone really really wants to keep their double upgraded Uber tommies, then go for the halftrack dropped, doctrine specific, Vickers K. It makes it a viable choice due to its power, but offset by its cost and it being locked to a doctrine. Regular Bren guns stay good, but cheaper to avoid Tommy blobs frontally annihilating an MG, but still capable of winning most long range fights that they are supposed to win.

Bren Gun- 45 munitions, non-doctrinal, slightly weaker

Vickers K- 60 munitions, doctrinal/heavy engineers only, current power.

End state: weaker Brens as requested but at a reduced cost to offset. Better distinction between Brens and Vickers K. More reasons to tech to anvil and use heavy engineer upgrade and doctrinal halftrack droppef Vickers Ks in 1v1s, which are both heavily under utilized in favor of simply getting Brens.

Sniper started missing shots out of sudden?
HMG42 stopped suppressing?
Grenades stopped exploding?
P4 shells stared to bounce?
Mortars stopped attacking?

Any other particular reason why you believe a 240/60 squad should trade equally with a squad that costs 280/120 and had to invest 50 additional fuel and couple of hundred mp just to be able to end up in that state? Why are your grens not vet3 to nullify tommies rec acc vet? On top of that, tommies get only half of the accuracy bonus that grens get.

By the time tommies are vet3 you REALLY should have something more on field then LMG grens.
That being said, I might have found out why you struggle so much - have you ever considered building anything else then grenadiers?

The problem isnt the balance between a 240/60 unit and a 280/120 unit its that such a match up is even possible. This has been the problem since WFA. You have a unit that is superiour to start and is able to widen the gap even firther than the other evennhas a chance to get. Double upgrades are bad business. The whole POINT of the lmg42 was to give grens a fighting chance against superiour numbers, that doesnt work when they are out gunned and out numbered from the literal word go.

And i dont buy that tommies should be balanced around the 5 man upgrade. They are VERY potent as a 4 man squad (smallest target size of any starting unit, long range focus, can build thwir own cover, accurate...)

The game has just got so over the top its not even funny. They dont even pretend balance is on the radar and now were getting a community patch that tthe community is against becauae the community had no input at all and the "scope" as being used to deny touching on important problens isnt clear at all. As someone whos been around from the start i think this game is on the out. Relic is letting those who promised to stick around free reign to do as they wish with it and its going to die as. A result

Do you know WHY the cheapest infantry get that weapon? Its because they are and only ever will be 4 men. They have that weapon so that despite their small squad size they can continue to fight as without it dps falls by 25% per model (of whom are easier to hit AND more expensive to replace than tommies btw) tommies dont have that problem becauae they can diffuse the 4 man squad problem.

I think weapon racks and 5 man squads should be mutually exclusive. If thats the case keep brens big and strong, but as long as they get throw on another model (with health, a gun and presenting another target to disperse incoming damage) theres no reason for the bren to be MUCH more than a fancy model.you cant have an inferiour squad inferiour 100% of the time in literally every single way and call it balance. Let okw start with obers and lets see how that balance goes. Same thing, just a smaller scale with tommies.

well, it's a bit of a chicken and egg question.

does the grenadier get lmg42 because they only 4 men, or are they 4 men because they get the lmg42?

the mg42 is very much part of the german identity, and people expect the lmg42 to be great. Being able to field 240 mp squad equipped with one of the best LMG in the game is pretty much the wehr's main strength.

as it is currently, the real issue for the bren is the dual equip capability. Even with the cover bonus it's still worst than the LMG42.

The combo of Vickers_k, Bren gun and tommy rifles is optimised for a-moving max-range (except for cover penalties, luckily).

1919 is max range too. However garands and bars aren't so amazing at a-move range.

the change in the current patch log would "fix" bren + vicker, but it still doesn't really address the underlining issue. There's still the possbility of m1919a6 + vickers for the USF in team game.

Yes, it's a very specific combo, but it's not a difficult combo to do.

Ultimately, I think vicker k needs to be made to take up two slot and balanced accordingly. or nerfed down to dp-28 level. The only real benefit of the vicker K is giving it to allies or shenanigans.

The fact that it's actually a different weapon mean there's more technical leeway. You can change the special weapon vicker K without worrying about accidently changing the bren. (like what happened with the coaxial and hull on the t34).

well, right now the tommy bren is too weak to be limited to one and too strong for dual pick up. It's either going to be buffing the bren and limiting it or nerfing the bren decreasing its cost.

actually, after looking at the tommies and bren more closely, I will need to correct myself. the main reason why single bren is weak is because the tommies have the weakest veterancy among line infantry. 20% accuracy and 22% accuracy protection is pretty crappy.

The tommies pretty much depend on their fifth man and dual bren to keep pace with other line infantry.


the pending tommies veterancy change is also technically a nerf as well:

.88*.89 = .7832

Tommys have a target size of .8 not .89 so its actually .8*.77=.62 and it coming at vet 2 is the kicker- EFA (grens for example) get their -23% target size at vet 3 so already more durable tommys get MORE durable SOONER. Moving ot to vet 3 might help with snowballing and the accuracy coming at vet 2 migh help with brens counting for more earlier to boot.