SOV Sniper design

Many feel that the Soviet sniper currently is too durable and thus OP in the current meta. The spring balance patch addresses this by changing the SOV sniper to a 1 man team of increased health (same as OST and UKF sniper).

Furthermore, the performance of the hull MGs of most light vehicles against all snipers is buffed. Likewise, all snipers are now easier to hit on retreat. In addition, the 222 was made cheaper and more durable.

Now, it is suggested that snipers are easier to balance if they all behave similarly. However, several people will dislike the trend of homogenizing the factions further. What is your take on this?

Note: The question here is not if the SOV snipers are currently OP, or if the changes will render snipers in general useless.

The question is if you think the SOV snipers should remain a 2 person team or not. I'll rephrase the 4 options here (there is a limit on how long the answers can be):

1) Keep 2 man team; if OP, rather change (buff) the counters similar to what is suggested in current patch notes.
2) Keep 2 man team, but change how that team works or make some other more extensive changes to other units (please explain).
3) I would be in favor of a 2 man team for diversity, but unfortunately it will be impossible to balance that properly, so I'm afraid it needs to be a single person only.
4) A unit like a sniper ever should be on person only, I never liked the idea of a 2 man sniper "team".

Edit:

Just an understanding question.

Where is the difference between the last two survey options?

Yeah, probably not too clear, but what I mean is:

Option 3: "I would prefer to keep the 2 man team because diversity, but I don't think it will be possible to balance that properly, so unfortunately it needs to go..."
Option 4: "I wouldn't like to see a 2 man team, even if perfectly balanced! Snipers need to be lone wolves, not this communist sniper/spotter team thingy. I mean, even in 'Enemy at the gates' the soviet sniper was alone! I mean, come on..."

1 man, regardless. Who ever played the guard+sniper combo know what it means to have easy mode in this game.

Always 1 model; it needs to be possible to counter snipe the sniper AND remove the vet its gained, other wise it will always be imbalanced.

Snipers are inherently high risk:reward units. On one hand, every shot is a guaranteed 20-40mp drain on the enemy. On the other, one shot can cost you 360mp and vet. Disrupting that risk factor basically ruins sniper play, since one player is risking 360mp AND all vet whereas the other is risking a reinforcement cost.

Always 1 model; it needs to be possible to counter snipe the sniper AND remove the vet its gained, other wise it will always be imbalanced.

Snipers are inherently high risk:reward units. On one hand, every shot is a guaranteed 20-40mp drain on the enemy. On the other, one shot can cost you 360mp and vet. Disrupting that risk factor basically ruins sniper play, since one player is risking 360mp AND all vet whereas the other is risking a reinforcement cost.

Thanks for the reasoning. However, I wouldn't subscribe to that, I'm afraid. First up, if counter sniping needs to be possible, by extension this would mean that all factions would need to have access to a sniper (or no snipers at all). Secondly, OH sniper sort of has the option to counter snipe with the famous double tap...

Regarding the MP argument: Assuming the sniper makes it back to base, the 1 man sniper only needs heal. The 2 man sniper team might require reinforcement which is rather expensive (adjusting that cost might be another way to balance the unit, no?). So, from that point of view, the 2 man team is worse. Now, the obvious question is how likely it is for the two concepts to make it back to base.

So, we have 2 models with 64 HP vs. 1 model 82 HP...

Now, there are a lot of ways a sniper can die:

• Countersniping
  
• Vehicles
  
• Explosives/Indirect fire
  
• Infantry (flanks) or generally small arms
  

(note: Certainly, the points vary in effectiveness, also depending on the opposing faction; also, the patch contains changes affecting almost all of them).

I'll give you that in the "Countersniping" department the 2 man team clearly has advantages (subject to the remarks above). Also, the overall greater health likely helps vs. small arms (potentially also another knob to tune). However, for the other two points I'd claim it is far less obvious which sniper concept provides more survivability.

Imo one should try more before giving up on an design feature.

One of the issues with the soviet sniper is that even if it loses a model it remain equally effective.

Making the sniper rifle non transferable and making the sniper have sight range 35 is worth trying.

Generally there are nerf that could be used to tone down all snipers.

Like:
Turn sniper to doctrinal units
delay their arrival
Reduce damage vs non support weapon
Improve OKW and USF counter sniping units or make this units stock (Pathfinder/JILR)

Why need so change uniq unit, just buff counters and soviet have more worse combinations with snipers the ostheer or brtis (snare obly problem) and this 1 model is not good, coz sometimes soviet snipers just must tanking.
Did peoples kill KT with m3 ? nope, thay build counter unit like su or make medium spam, same must be with sniper, you blob or flank or rush with m20 to counter it.

Why need so change uniq unit, just buff counters and soviet have more worse combinations with snipers the ostheer or brtis (snare obly problem) and this 1 model is not good, coz sometimes soviet snipers just must tanking.
Did peoples kill KT with m3 ? nope, thay build counter unit like su or make medium spam, same must be with sniper, you blob or flank or rush with m20 to counter it.

ah..you play sov vs usf...?

there are counter...but they are so less effective...why should u need a whole army, luck and good strategie to kill a 260mp unit?

and sniper must be tanky? why? sov has so much tanky infantery...the tankiest in the game.

to kill a kt need much less skill as to kill a sov sniper behind a guards penal wall...

kt is easy without support.

ah..you play sov vs usf...?

there are counter...but they are so less effective...why should u need a whole army, luck and good strategie to kill a 260mp unit?

and sniper must be tanky? why? sov has so much tanky infantery...the tankiest in the game.

to kill a kt need much less skill as to kill a sov sniper behind a guards penal wall...

kt is easy without support.

Yes, play and ?

Coz DPS of axis infantry in long range are better then soviet.
Its problem are not sniper problem, its synergy problem and decision problem, that dont need try to kill sniper if there are blob like that. To get guard/penal wall need time and a lot of MP.

I know that I wont get snipers with ANY faction now. Snipers RA nerfed, vehicle MGs buffed. What could possibly go wrong??? lol

Just an understanding question.

Where is the difference between the last two survey options?

Yes, play and ?

Coz DPS of axis infantry in long range are better then soviet.
Its problem are not sniper problem, its synergy problem and decision problem, that dont need try to kill sniper if there are blob like that. To get guard/penal wall need time and a lot of MP.

?? you should 2 penals, 2 snipers and min 1 guards in the first 5-6min....after than you have a basis army and need only a katj, 1-2 su85 and maybe one more pio. thats it for the most games.

Just an understanding question.

Where is the difference between the last two survey options?

Yeah, probably not too clear, but what I mean is:

Option 3: "I would prefer to keep the 2 man team because diversity, but I don't think it will be possible to balance that properly, so unfortunately it needs to go..."
Option 4: "I wouldn't like to see a 2 man team, even if perfectly balanced! Snipers need to be lone wolves, not this communist sniper/spotter team thingy. I mean, even in 'Enemy at the gates' the soviet sniper was alone! I mean, come on..."

First of all stats.

Squad size reduced from 2 to 1
• Camouflage combat reset time from 16 to 10
• Camouflage revert time from 3 to 6
• Hitpoints increased from 64 to 82
• Population increased from 8 to 9
• Ready aim time changed to 1.5 From 1.75 CORRECTION From 1.0
• Cooldown changed to 3.5 (min) - 4 (max) From 4.8


NOTE: Wasn't all snipers supposed to have their max CD be usage as base.
"Cooldown, and all aim-time always uses the max amount of time and has been standardized for all distances meaning snipers do not fire more quickly the closer the target is."
Why not just put it at 3.75 and call it a day.


• Reload duration decreased from 5 to 4.5
• Reload frequency increased from 4 to 9
Mosin Nagant with 10 munition clip

• Population from 8 to 9
• Out of cover camouflage decloak time increased by 2 seconds

TL;DR: slightly worst OH sniper.


My vote goes to: change/nerf SU sniper in some other ways while retaining the 2 man squad.

1- I REALLY HOPE the buff to counters will basically make sniper play unplayable (all of them), cause i don't want to see a game on which SU soviet snipers are stronger than now, and the only realistic solution is gonna be counter snipe because:
-Mortars won't be able to kill them at either 82HP or because when they are in cover, they will still not kill them at all. YOU ALL people complaining about 2x64 HP are gonna miss the times you could kill them with indirect fire.
-Camouflage on the move is GOOD.

2- I REALLY HOPE mostly OH sniper on soviet faction doesn't make it so it's stronger with higher risk to pull them off. I don't want to see cheese games of clowncar + snipers and OH hiding till 222 arrives and the result of the game is determined by either Soviet going full clowncar sniper into T70 or OH managing to kill snipers.

3- I thought we established that Company of snipers was a bad design.

4- Why not nerf/adjust soviet snipers with:
A) Make the scout rifle transferable instead of the sniper variant. Increase reinforce cost/time. This allows OH german sniper to counter snipe basically always, when it retains better camouflage and better RoF.
B) Increase splash on 64dmg threshold on incendiary shot (so you can 1 shot soviet sniper more reliable) and give flares revealing on cloak targets. Now both units have a vet 1 ability which lets you counter the other sniper.
C) Just increase size on SU sniper to offset the higher HP pool.

?? you should 2 penals, 2 snipers and min 1 guards in the first 5-6min....after than you have a basis army and need only a katj, 1-2 su85 and maybe one more pio. thats it for the most games.

What MP income are in 5 min and what squads yo can get for it money ?
And one flame HT will be counter it, one AA HT will be counter it.

I think the sniper should be unique in some way at all cost. Making it just a worse ostheer sniper is both dangerous and lazy. Not to mention that double, triple and so on nerfs are a good way to jump with pretty good ballance way off target.

1 man, regardless. Who ever played the guard+sniper combo know what it means to have easy mode in this game.

I think you didn't get that this is not a ballance thread. Read the opening post once again. And again. Until you get it right.

?? you should 2 penals, 2 snipers and min 1 guards in the first 5-6min....after than you have a basis army and need only a katj, 1-2 su85 and maybe one more pio. thats it for the most games.

Which mod you are playing, where soviets seem to have 150 more mp/min to afford all of that without losing map presence in early game?

Should have been 1 man snipers from the start, 2 man snipers removed the ability to outplay an opponent with counter snipe. Now it should require more skill to properly use the Sov sniper and put it in line with other snipers.

Also, one issue with the sniper team was that 1 was too weak but 2 was too strong. Now one should be sufficient since its stats will be better.

I am opposed to the 1 man change, because I do not like the idea of homogenisation being the source of balance. It worries me that things like mortars, snipers and MG's are being homogenised, I see why, but I don't want to see the factions become bland.

I don't see why the soviet sniper cant be nerfed by increasing its received accuracy. At the moment the brit sniper, for example, feels extremely flimsy to small arms fire, while the soviet sniper team does not.

Increase the soviet snipers received accuracy so it is MORE vulnerable to consistent small arms fire than other snipers (for clarification, i mean, imagine the time to kill of a stock infantry unit shooting undisturbed at a sniper team, make the soviets time to kill under those circumstances shorter than for all the other snipers), but keep the 2 man squad. Then you have a unit that retains its uniqueness, is resistant to 1 off counter snipe shots, but dies very easily to consistent damage over time.

I am opposed to the 1 man change, because I do not like the idea of homogenisation being the source of balance. It worries me that things like mortars, snipers and MG's are being homogenised, I see why, but I don't want to see the factions become bland.

I don't see why the soviet sniper cant be nerfed by increasing its received accuracy. At the moment the brit sniper, for example, feels extremely flimsy to small arms fire, while the soviet sniper team does not.

Increase the soviet snipers received accuracy so it is MORE vulnerable to consistent small arms fire than other snipers (for clarification, i mean, imagine the time to kill of a stock infantry unit shooting undisturbed at a sniper team, make the soviets time to kill under those circumstances shorter than for all the other snipers), but keep the 2 man squad. Then you have a unit that retains its uniqueness, is resistant to 1 off counter snipe shots, but dies very easily to consistent damage over time.

Although the nerf you propose is to harsh in my opinion, the direction of thinking is definitely good. Soviet sniper model was once at 48hp and it was a very rare sight after it lost its sprint. It was definitely easier to kill with LVs though.

So even though I think your proposition is a little too much, I still think its better than the one from the patch notes. First of all it is simple, so it is much easier to estimate where the unit will find itself ballance wise after changes. Secondly it preserves the uniqe aspect of the unit which is invaluable, especially when you consider that coh game have never been known for their ballance, but rather unique mechanics, units and abilities.

People who say that ballance is more important than design becouse tourneys are not ballanced enough should really go ahead and host some tourneys with mirror matches allowed.

I think the 2 man team provides an interesting dynamic. Now somewhat cheap counter-sniping as soon as they reveal themselves is mostly off the table. It also makes the soviet sniper less prone to getting wiped by artillery. This makes it so that protected vehicles are the best way of getting rid of pesky snipers. The only thing the Wehrmacht lacks is a decent vehicle for doing that, half-tracks are too immobile and scout cars are too expensive for their value.

I found a good way of dealing with them while not using vehicles is using the dynamic LOS system. Hide some good short-range infantry behind a bush, wait for the sniper to come, and spray em' down.

This raises a larger discussion on the topic of getting rid of more unique game-play in the name of balance. In my opinion, its a slippery, downwards slope if not done extremely well. Look what it did to DOW3.