Spring Update - Balance thread

If you want a P2, T70 or Puma type of vehicle, you are up to keep been disappointed. It's a 200mp 30f which arrives fairly early in the timing between scoutcars and light tanks.

The armor increase means that it practically got a ±50% increase chance on deflecting bullets frontally. Most small arm fires coming from infantry, have a pen of 1. Light armor vehicles benefit fighting low RoF high accuracy units as opposed to say SMGs. This is due to accuracy not been an issue. It's easier to fight off a scoutcar with a Pio/Rear echelon rather than grens or Rifles.

So, let's say you are getting shots by Rifles. 10 rounds per mag, 2.5s (it's 2.45avg but it's easier that way) reload. You can round the RoF at 1s or 2s (either near or far range) straight to account for the reload every 10 shots. 8dmg. 222 has 320HP.

You'll need 40 shots to pen. Before, frontally, it took around 360 shots to kill (1/9). Now you'll need 560 shots (1/14).

If somehow the Rifle squads are not losing models, not moving or been pushed around (old vs new)
1 Rifle will take near: 72s/112s. Far: 144/224s

Meanwhile, the Greyhound takes zero shots to kill with rifles, because it DOESN'T TAKE BULLET DAMAGE.

"Between armored cars and light armor"?? The 222 IS supposed to be an armored car. I don't understand this absurd insistance on keeping it unviable by making it take damage from bullets. There WHOLE point of ANY kind of light armored vehicle is to harass infantry. If it can't do that, there is absolutely no reason to use it.

The KT meme needs to die, we are currently in a tank destroyer meta, all the heavy tanks bar Pershing are seeing next to 0 play because spamming tds and infantry is better in almost every scenario.

A lot of changes in the notes go some way to making them more viable, we've all played in overbuffed heavy metas and I personally prefer the relative tank diversity we get at the moment.

With that said i've made use of Is2 and KT recently to beat top players, if you can use your brain to come up with a build that fits a heavy into it you still have a heavy tank as a win condition. They just arent the no-brain automatic choice they used to be

Can anyone explain what the new 222 armor numbers mean?

Is the 222 FINALLY, after YEARS, going to be an actual ARMORED car that is immune to rifle fire?

Or is this just some symbolic buff that won't actually affect damage taken from any practical sources, in the same way all changes to the 222 over the past two years have been entirely pointless and failing to make it viable as pseudo-light armor?

It wasn't immune in real life(carbines and HMGs didn't really struggled with making it a swiss cheese), why would it be immune in game? It'll simply be MUCH more resistant to small arms fire.

Meanwhile, the Greyhound takes zero shots to kill with rifles, because it DOESN'T TAKE BULLET DAMAGE.

"Between armored cars and light armor"?? The 222 IS supposed to be an armored car. I don't understand this absurd insistance on keeping it unviable by making it take damage from bullets. There WHOLE point of ANY kind of light armored vehicle is to harass infantry. If it can't do that, there is absolutely no reason to use it.

Greyhound is:

-more expensive
-doctrinal
-arriving later
-AI only despite having supposedly better gun, 222 already rips it to shreds.
-actually better armored then 222

And 222 is multirole cheap vehicle.
Its somewhat effective anti tair with 7,5% chance to kill planes with every shot.
Its alright as assist against infantry.
It rips completely all lights below light tanks and a pair will hardcounter AEC, which is more then twice as expensive to get then single 222.

It rips completely all lights below light tanks and a pair will hardcounter AEC, which is more then twice as expensive to get then single 222.

fuel wise, yes.

Manpower? no.

the issue with 222 is that fact it's a light truck trying to do the job of a light tank. early-mid game is driven by light tank and wehr is now the only one that doesn't actually get one.

fuel wise, yes.

Manpower? no.

the issue with 222 is that fact it's a light truck trying to do the job of a light tank. early-mid game is driven by light tank and wehr is now the only one that doesn't actually get one.

Its a stop gap and buffing it and/or reducing its price is going to generate more evident gap on USF and UKF gameplay.

As it is presented today, M20 and M15 are dead units, and AEC, Stuart and T70 are probably going to be hardly impacted.

So the logic seems to be: nerf Stug and Panther because you won't need them anyway since you can totally crush anything with 2-3 buffed 222's.

i would have wanted cromwell to get better moving accuracy.

It wasn't immune in real life(carbines and HMGs didn't really struggled with making it a swiss cheese), why would it be immune in game? It'll simply be MUCH more resistant to small arms fire.

now now, you know better than that....

Has no one touched on the M3 supply halftrack yet? Now on top of the 100 mp and 25 fuel you need to pay 300 mp and 30 fuel just for a halftrack with some sweet weapons (Also a ton of munitions sink)! I know double brens/vickers can be very frustrating to play against, but really relic? Show Spoiler

This unit is sadly a design fail, as it completely shifts ballance by allowing soviets to use 2 british lmgs per each conscript squad in team games. This is why I can understand making it expensive enough not to be viable, although I would definitely like to see some clever redesign. Maybe it should be able to build racks on the field instead of actual weapons so that other team members can't use them? or maybe it should be a rack itself? I don't even know if it is possible to implement.

Fairly sure they changed the Conscript weapon slots so they can only grab one Vickers K from a Special Weapons teammate.

Svt-40 is interesting and the best choice if you want an upgrade.

Would it be 3 penal svts? Or a different damage model entirely?

3 Penal SVT-40 it ok for improve DPS

But should Use 1 Weapon slot too

Not trying to sound condescending (though thats probably exactly what I'm doing) but there are a lot of extremely good players who have already offered their opinions on most of these subjects. A lot of the changes that many people have ridiculed (whether theyre blatantly biased players, rank 2000+ 4v4 players, decent players, forum members that dont even play the game anymore, etc.) were made under the advisement of or were suggested by the literal best players that this community has; this includes players from all game sizes (1v1, 2v2, and 3v3+4v4). With these kinds of balance threads generating a lot of...noise, and with almost every other person having directly opposite impressions and opinions of the changes, its kind of natural to place the most importance on feedback from top players who, quite frankly, have shown that they actually understand the game. Given how large the skill/knowledge gap is between the tournament winners and, well, everyone else, they kind of earned the credibility that was given to them. And yes, that unfortunately means that a lot of people's opinions will go under the radar.

You look like person who know somthing. So tell to us, what ranks of players can criticize, how many hours thay must have to do it ? And what another must to do, just look that some kind of abusers (suggested by the literal best players that this community has) you must write there names, if you use them like proofs to defend but not explaine patch changes. I think community must know heroes, specially part that are 2k ranks players and dont play game.
You guys use same logic taht close to Hainlaine books, where if you dont was in army, you dont have civil rights. For our community its more looks like part of nazi or rasism. Not top ???? 5 ? 10 ? 20 ? 50 ? You opinion are nothing untermench ? So tell to us Jae, how many top players watch you in tounreys ? 5 or 10 ? or maybe it was hundreds of regular players ?
Thanks, nice to know that in balance team are part of elite nazi players, that win 0 in Esport coh, but exhibit themselves like navel of Earth.
Wow, you say tourneys winners, so its must be DevM, Noggano, VonIvan, Jove, Barton, Luvnest, Paula ? How many time thay spend for it, coz thay study, work ? Or thay just make signature (good/bad changes) ?
Back again with few words, so this top players and tounrey winners are so good, so thay cannot push retreut buttno from katysha shoot, but dont have same problem with stuka and PW ? Did thay are best after this ?
Also constructors of planes are not best pilots, but best pilots are not constructors.

Its a stop gap and buffing it and/or reducing its price is going to generate more evident gap on USF and UKF gameplay.

As it is presented today, M20 and M15 are dead units, and AEC, Stuart and T70 are probably going to be hardly impacted.

The M20 Utility Car's MG was never really a threat to it: its method of countering the 222 is mines and the crew bazooka, neither of which will be affected much by the armour change.

The AAHT has an autocannon which might be a little less effective at killing 222s now. You can usually get some RE bazookas out by the time you get the AAHT out.

Most of the 222's counters are AT weapons that shouldn't be hampered too much. It just won't be killed by infantry now.

You look like person who know somthing. So tell to us, what ranks of players can criticize, how many hours thay must have to do it ? And what another must to do, just look that some kind of abusers (suggested by the literal best players that this community has) you must write there names, if you use them like proofs to defend but not explaine patch changes. I think community must know heroes, specially part that are 2k ranks players and dont play game.
You guys use same logic taht close to Hainlaine books, where if you dont was in army, you dont have civil rights. For our community its more looks like part of nazi or rasism. Not top ???? 5 ? 10 ? 20 ? 50 ? You opinion are nothing untermench ? So tell to us Jae, how many top players watch you in tounreys ? 5 or 10 ? or maybe it was hundreds of regular players ?
Thanks, nice to know that in balance team are part of elite nazi players, that win 0 in Esport coh, but exhibit themselves like navel of Earth.
Wow, you say tourneys winners, so its must be DevM, Noggano, VonIvan, Jove, Barton, Luvnest, Paula ? How many time thay spend for it, coz thay study, work ? Or thay just make signature (good/bad changes) ?
Back again with few words, so this top players and tounrey winners are so good, so thay cannot push retreut buttno from katysha shoot, but dont have same problem with stuka and PW ? Did thay are best after this ?
Also constructors of planes are not best pilots, but best pilots are not constructors.

This grammer actually hurts a little.

As you know I'm quite active on this forum and I proposed unique and balanced solutions many times.

Like that time when you suggested to give the su76 HE ammo so that it could act as a 90 fuel Isu152?

Fair and balanced indeed.

The global Mortar nerfs I like. Though I guess it would be better to nerf the accuracy rather than the RoF, since sudden mortar wipes and consistent damage without bleed are a problem. It supposed to be a dislocation tool rather than a steady bleed tool. Which will remain the same with mortar spam.

Wehr infantry still struggles, and will struggle even more with the popcap nerfs. Consider a received accuracy buff of 3%-3% at BF 2 and BF 3, effecting Pios and Grens to help them stay on the field - Panzergrens receive this buff only when near tanks or armored vehicles.

Soviet sniper changes just make the game more pale. Increase its counters, nerf received accuracy to help counters, but keep it as its designed, a two man, durable Soviet squad.

Command Pz IV changes are unwarranted. The unit was never a problem and the changes simply make it pointless.

The StuG RoF changes are in the right direction, but out of context - the StuG and mortars are what keep Wehr afloat, and you nerf both. If the StuGs RoF is nerfed, at least increase its armor to OST Pz IV level so that it could actually work as counter vs mediums. Right now everything penetrates it, its basically a more expensive Su 76 without free barrage and extra range to keep out of harms way.

Panther changes are bad. Armor must stay as it is. The Panther is already a marginal unit, and due to how the armor works even mediums can reliably . Now it doesnt have practical armor, it will just keep in the back repaired endlessly. Also it does not need to become more of an overpriced stug overlapping in roles with higher rof, but it needs higher alpha damage of 200 to give it a character in Wehrs aresenal - a counter to Su 76 spam and prediums.

Also Su 85 is crazy good right now, it fires fast, pens everything, and cheap to boot. It needs to loose some of this, preferably RoF like the StuG. SU 76 can fill that role.

Hull down - no. Again a change nobody asked for. The ability is difficult to use as it is, so if these changes are in, tank should be able to hull down on their own.

Cons PPhsh. Again, not much of a problem, keep it as it is. It seems like as a nerf but actually its a buff since the unit is now good at ALL ranges.

Stun Granades - again a problem that was never a problem, a change nobody asked for.

Which brings up the question - what is the scope of this patch? This looks like again not a balance patch, but a personal mod.

This unit is sadly a design fail, as it completely shifts ballance by allowing soviets to use 2 british lmgs per each conscript squad in team games. This is why I can understand making it expensive enough not to be viable, although I would definitely like to see some clever redesign. Maybe it should be able to build racks on the field instead of actual weapons so that other team members can't use them? or maybe it should be a rack itself? I don't even know if it is possible to implement.

You might want to read previous patch patch-notes.

Not trying to sound condescending (though thats probably exactly what I'm doing) but there are a lot of extremely good players who have already offered their opinions on most of these subjects. A lot of the changes that many people have ridiculed (whether theyre blatantly biased players, rank 2000+ 4v4 players, decent players, forum members that dont even play the game anymore, etc.) were made under the advisement of or were suggested by the literal best players that this community has; this includes players from all game sizes (1v1, 2v2, and 3v3+4v4). With these kinds of balance threads generating a lot of...noise, and with almost every other person having directly opposite impressions and opinions of the changes, its kind of natural to place the most importance on feedback from top players who, quite frankly, have shown that they actually understand the game. Given how large the skill/knowledge gap is between the tournament winners and, well, everyone else, they kind of earned the credibility that was given to them. And yes, that unfortunately means that a lot of people's opinions will go under the radar.

Just because someone is good at COH2 doesn´t mean he knows how to balance the game. Some "elite" players "balancing" the game behind closed curtains just doesn´t feel like a very good idea. Everyone who disagrees with them is labeled a bad player, troll, fanboy etc. Having great micro and abusing the latest op meta strats doesn´t make you great at balancing the game. I bet there are tons of people who know/understand more about the game than our last tourney winners.

The patch as it is right now is just not very good. Unfortunately no one listens to valid points people make because of ranks etc.

Why even make this thread if every valid point someone makes just ends in "best players contributed to patch bla bla bla"...

Just gets to show you how elitist the COH2 community is...Which is kind of ironic because winning some COH2 tournament is basically meaningless. "Elite COH2 players" should come down from their high horses IMO. You guys are not some SC2, LOL, DOTA2, CS stars...

The Panther armour hp change is a buff. If you really cant comprehend that youre a moron