How to deal with supported KV8 in 1v1?

First off, I'll admit I'm not the world's greatest player (only rank 300ish 1v1 ger), and this may be just a l2p issue, but as german I'm finding it really hard to beat the KV8 if the soviet backs it with a conscripts squad, ZiS or SU85. I realise that this combo is effective use of soviet combined arms and should be rewarded, but I just don't know what a german player can do in response to the KV8 in particular.

The KV8 BBQs everything that's not a vehicle (sometimes before they even start to retreat due to latency), and if the soviet isn't a complete monkey you'll rarely get a P4 in range of it due to SU85 or ZiS. Worst of all, even if you do get a P4 in range of it, its heavy armor deflects your shots a lot of the time anyway, then you get AT naded if you get a fraction too close and ZiS/SU85 mop up.

So can anyone advise me on how to deal with the KV8 when it's adequately supported? Soviets who don't bullrush it like retards and just creep it up with SU85 or ZiS, seem to be completely unstoppable. If my map control is mediocre, its backed with SU85 as well, but a lot of my losses to KV8s I've actually controlled most of the map, and the soviet has just sat back near his base with AT guns and cons to stop me rushing, and waited for the fuel to trickle in for the KV8. Once its out, I usually lose a couple of gren/PG squads on the front lines pretty much instantly, even after retreating as soon as I see it, while frantically trying to micro my P4s (which I keep slightly back due to SU85/ZiS). Then I'm gradually forced further and further back because I can't cap anywhere near a KV8 without being instagibbed.

If I get PAKs the ZiS or SU-76 or Kats barrage them if the snipers don't get them first, and even if I'm very careful with them the KV8 seems to shrug them off half of the time anyway (since where the sovs can AT nade pretty much any german tank, its utter suicide trying to faust a KV8). Panthers can penetrate the KV8 armor a lot better, but going T4 in a 1v1 is generally suicide unless you've already won, same with Elefant. And P4s you just can't get close. Sorry if I'm repeating myself here, I just don't know how to deal with this thing and it's frustrating the crap out of me.

The other thing with the KV8 is its cost - at 375/135 and 3CP it seems a pretty stellar pick, I know you sacrifice guards as soviet to get it, but wow. Given it doesn't need teching, it's probably roughly cost equivalent to P4/ostwind. It kills infantry probably 3 times faster than the ostwind, and is a heavily armored beast that bounces P4 shells into the bargain. Is it a sleeper OP unit (everyone seems focused on SU85 and MG42 atm), or am I just doing it wrong?

A p4 can brawl with the kv8 but if I sense that tank coming into play from the soviets I will try (keyword try) to get out tier 4 and a panther. it can also take on a kv8 and an su-85 if micro'd correctly. Also the kv8 is an instane crit machine at the moment so i've noticed most rus players just rush it in like you said. I lay a nice teller and lure it into some sort of trap. If you give your opponent something to go after infantry wise (maybe make a sniper and stick around the teller) that might give you a nice attempt to destroy the tank. Right now I feel like it's OP so I mean honestly it's something you'll just be dealing with temporarily. I'd be really surprised if they didn't patch this thing.

Edit: Also tier 4 will give you some panzerwerfers, pretty underused unit probably because of the cost of tier 4 that can stop that AT creep.

Thanks for the reply. I think next time I'm dominating the map I'll try for panthers. Of course if its evenly poised and a KV8 comes out with SU85 that's a whole different ballgame, but I'll be happy in the interim if I can at least close out those games I'm already winning and the KV8 just wipes the floor with my capping units.

Might also try going mortar heavy to keep the ZiS at guns in check so I can keep my P4s closer to the front. My main concern I guess is that with all the SU85 and MG42 balance talk, KV8 is getting completely overlooked.

if you can afford panthers... you can afford a couple extra p4s to flank the enemy tank and keep control of the map earlier in the game. I dont believe in pretty much ever getting tier4 in a 1v1 unless you have complete map control from tier 1 and you want to troll them.

the real issue is probably that you didnt have good momentum before the kv8s come out. mines placed at chokepoints the entire game, p4s, a pak of your own and playing aggressively throughout the game is necessary.

if you wait until enemy heavies start coming out and looking for a counter, you are just delaying the inevitable. you have to build early momentum and use combined arms to stay competitive

if you can afford panthers... you can afford a couple extra p4s to flank the enemy tank and keep control of the map earlier in the game. I dont believe in pretty much ever getting tier4 in a 1v1 unless you have complete map control from tier 1 and you want to troll them.

the real issue is probably that you didnt have good momentum before the kv8s come out. mines placed at chokepoints the entire game, p4s, a pak of your own and playing aggressively throughout the game is necessary.

if you wait until enemy heavies start coming out and looking for a counter, you are just delaying the inevitable. you have to build early momentum and use combined arms to stay competitive

I agree with the momentum part. But I'm going to say on a whim that having a well microed panther is a lot scarier than having 2 p4's. Yea, you can flank but a good opponent will lay mines and the potential for hitting them can be high (sorry I said button I forgot that this doctrine does NOT have guards), This being said, a p4 cannot take on either of these tanks head on, but the panther can do this all day. You have to be careful of course, he's not invincible.

I think the problem is people are "afraid" to go tier 4. So many people are in this "I need a panzer 4 NOW" mindset that you're actually putting yourself at a disadvantage. Your opponent will say "He will go tier 3 of course, everyone does" Just like you assume they will get snipers and su-85's. So... I usually have an "extended" (not sure what the norm is yet) tier 1 > tier 2. So 4 Grens, 1 MG. I then build a panzer grenadier squad and upgrade them with shreks and / or a pak if I really need to keep armor at bay. I then use the ostruppen doctrine to punish quick sniper kills from my enemy. Also, ostruppen may be helpful in battling the kv-8 as if he's melting your infantry you will start flooding the battlefield with cheap infantry and since they are cannon fodder you can use them to disable the kv-8 rather than your grens / panzer grens. If you then get out your tier 4, you have tons of expendable troops, and a panther which can RUSH ( if you feel frisky) the su-85 and kill it easily when the opportunity arises and it makes mincemeat of the kv-8, there is no competition between the panther and these two tanks. I say panther because it nullifies both tank pretty heavily.

Also, I edited the crap out my post, wrote it when I first woke up and it was full of mistakes, my bad.

Also, just for some math if you're interested:
So assuming you go Battle phase 1> 2> 3 like I propose to get you a panther, it will cost you total:
+ Tier 1 infantarie Kompanie: 80 mp / 10 fUEL
+ Battle phase 1: 200 MP /25 Fuel
+ Tier 2 Leichte Mechanized Kompanie: 120 Manpower / 15 Fuel
+ Battle phase 2: 200 MP / 35 Fuel
+ Battle phase 3: 200 MP / 50 Fuel
+ Tier 4 Heavy Panzer Korps: 160 Manpower / 30 Fuel
+Panther: 440 MP / 165 Fuel
-----Total-----
= 1400 Manpower
= 330 Fuel

Battle phase 1>2> 2 Panzer IV's
+ Tier 1 infantarie Kompanie: 80 mp / 10 fUEL
+ Battle phase 1: 200 MP /25 Fuel
+ Tier 2 Leichte Mechanized Kompanie: 120 Manpower / 15 Fuel
+ Battle phase 2: 200 MP / 35 Fuel
+ Tier 3 Support Armor Korps: 160 Manpower / 25 Fuel
+ (x2)Panzer IV: 640 MP / 230 Fuel
-----Total-----
= 1400 Manpower
= 340 Fuel

So believe it or not, the panzer Iv's actually cost a bit more fuel. Of course, the panther will hit a bit later than your first panzer IV, but take into account that your opponent may build an SU-85 regardless of seeing armor (which is very popular). On top of this, the ostruppen doctrine comes with a mortar halftrack (which may make this strat more expensive of course) but it can help to counter snipers and any AT gun creep. I've found these combined tactics wreck kv-8 play. Just my opinion.

interesting post but what youre forgetting is the fuel costs are to the first tank at 330 for the panther and 215 for the p4

a p4 on the battlefield will counter t70s and surviving m3s and dictate the flow of the battle. waiting for a panther is almost the same as waiting for a heavy tank, except that t4 doesnt give as much to the germans as it does the soviets. a superfluous nebelwerfer and a panther with no AI ability

For sure, but I tend to prefer the pzgrens / pak route to deal with any armour with the ostruppen active when large engagements happen. I try to spend the fewest amount of munitions possible early game to get those early shreks out. Also, they tend to wreck early scout cars (they in my opinion are a WAY better counter than the german upgunned scout car). You can put them in really sneaky spots using true sight and lure the scout cars in. If your opponent doesn't attack, then you just sit on your fuel.

Also, if you let your opponent roast / snipe your grens and make sure to not lose any squads you can pump out 2-3 ostruppen per use, which is really hard to counter IMO. All ostruppen have fausts. I have to note this is a muni heavy strat. But I tend to use them to stall KV-8s until I can get my panther out and keep popping relief infantry. if you lose your munis you're boned however.

Yeah I've seen a couple of HelpingHans replays where he makes good use of the commander with ostruppen and mortar HTs. Sector artillery looks pretty awesome too if you can get the munitions. Does the smoke pots ability require los? I'm thinking that might be a good ability to get my P4s into range of the KV8/ZiS/SU85s.

Mines I never seem to have the munis for.... Might try holding back on the LMG42s on my grens - though that's usually a big factor in my early map control. Also some maps like Langreskaya don't seem to have many good chokes to place mines. Where are good spots on that map (love it btw just wouldn't know where to mine)?

@Immortal: you forgot to mention when going T4 how great the Brummbar is for its price (I honestly think the KV8 is better than it, which just adds insult to injury).

@Immortal: you forgot to mention when going T4 how great the Brummbar is for its price (I honestly think the KV8 is better than it, which just adds insult to injury).

I honestly forgot the brummbar is even in the game

Regarding mines, the easiest usage is to place them on road intersections where you know vehicle pathing will generally take it because the units prefer the fastest/shortest route. so in the middle of langreskaya, a couple mines on the center of the roads at the intersections will hit vehicles most games. Just place them when your enemy doesnt have vision on the area where you are planting them. You can also stick an infantry squad on the other side of the mines and encourage an AI vehicle to rush straight at them... onto the mine. My mindset with mines is that you should be alternating them with other munitions buys as ostheers throughout the game and replacing ones that get lost since most people assume that once a mine blows, that road is clear. If your enemy starts clearing them with engineers, then use your munis for something else

Cheers mate, will give mines a go. I did knock about 75% health off and totally cripple a vet2 SU85 with a riegel in a recent game, just have to work on my placement.

I don't know about very well supported KV-8s, but I found that fausting a KV-8 and then finishing it off with a Pak and HEAT round is pretty good as the Pak gets vet in a couple shots.

I don't know about very well supported KV-8s, but I found that fausting a KV-8 and then finishing it off with a Pak and HEAT round is pretty good as the Pak gets vet in a couple shots.

whoever does the fausting has a good chance of dying on the retreat due to the high flame damage. itll do in a pinch but meh :/

pak is ok at range I guess, but itll take a while and the kv8 is faust enough to back away or close in even with a bit of engine damage (not engine destroyed)

Yeah the fausting is the hard part, last time I tried to faust one I lost 2 full squads of grens and a good player will reverse it back, keeping your PAK facing the heavy frontal armor which deflect almost as much as P4.

Yeah, it's kinda flawed, but the KV-8 is slow as hell when fausted, and the Pak gains vet in a couple of shots so combined with HEAT round I think you can do a bit of damage to it.

Will try using Paks a bit more, esp if they're getting buffed (which has been hinted at). Cheers

Yeah the fausting is the hard part, last time I tried to faust one I lost 2 full squads of grens and a good player will reverse it back, keeping your PAK facing the heavy frontal armor which deflect almost as much as P4.

Agreed, that's why I go ostruppen when I see that kv-8. If you pop relief infantry going up against a kv-8 you'll probably get 2 squads on return, then the main focus is just not losing your real infantry like grens and pzgrens (if possible). Hopefully they'll nerf the flame damage a bit so it doesn't chase down / insta gib whole squads on retreat anymore.

Is the Turret mounted Flamer how it was IRL?
(Id wiki it myself but I know there are tank nerds here who will love to explain it)

Maybe mounting it on the hull for only a frontal arc?

Is the Turret mounted Flamer how it was IRL?
(Id wiki it myself but I know there are tank nerds here who will love to explain it)

Maybe mounting it on the hull for only a frontal arc?

The flamethrower was in the turret beside an MG. The 45mm gun was disguised as a 76mm.

K, then overall I think flame effectivness vs retreating units, universally, needs a negative modifier.

It is afterall the chase/retreat dmg that Inthink, centrally, is the concern here. Not only for KV8, but for all flame vehicles that chase infantry off the field.

Its enough that flame vehicles can force infantry off the second they are spotted, the chase dmg is too much sugar on that cake.