An open letter to the CoHmmunity about rebroadcasting

Easiest solution going forward. Require hosts of tournament game to setup an obs password so only authorized casters can jump in the game and if any streamer rebroadcasts someones direct channel just direct everyone to mass report their channel for violating TOS.

/lock thread

The annoying thing is with that is that all players can see this password (we've tested it), and as it's merely a bypass delay password it can then be used for cheating/ live coaching, and we can't track who leaked it.

Relic didnt think the system through and if you recall actually bailed on passwords midway through ESL.

The only time it will be useful will be at GCS2 live tourney Cus the players won't be able to communicate with the outside world.

This legal talk is ridiculous lol, please stop pretending this is a bigger deal than it is. This is a conversation about etiquette that should have been resolved privately.

I certainly think it's disrespectful to be shoutcasting live alongside the main event, and it's annoyed me when it's happened to me in the past. It's a bit different if someone was streaming their first person perspective of them competing in the tournament or just laddering as opposed to casting the event, because that's not really "Competing" in the same sense and there's no reason why they can't just shoutcast the replays later.

If people want to cast it live, well, you can't stop them and it's in there right to do so given the observer mode functionality, but it's important to support event organisers because they help keep the community alive which leads to more people watching streams. (Don't bite the hand that feeds you, as it were)

The real issue here is Coh2's lack of custom game tools that prevents people you don't want observing from observing. You can create a 15 minute delay with password bypass, but to spectate live in practically every RTS game you have to be in the lobby, so the official casters naturally are the only ones doing it. It's still worth doing the password though, having a 15 minute delay would discourage people from watching alternative streams compared to the official stream which is live.

I would also say there needs to be more emphasis on making sure all these replays actually get posted, most of the replays from events such as King of the Hill never get posted (and I'm guessing many of these replays from the weekend weren't posted), so if I wanted to cast those replays I would have to do so live for myself. You can't really say "Oh can you just cast the replays later on so you don't compete with our stream" but then the replays don't actually get posted.

This legal talk is ridiculous lol, please stop pretending this is a bigger deal than it is. This is a conversation about etiquette that should have been resolved privately.

I certainly think it's disrespectful to be shoutcasting live alongside the main event, and it's annoyed me when it's happened to me in the past. It's a bit different if someone was streaming their first person perspective of them competing in the tournament or just laddering as opposed to casting the event, because that's not really "Competing" in the same sense and there's no reason why they can't just shoutcast the replays later.

If people want to cast it live, well, you can't stop them and it's in there right to do so given the observer mode functionality, but it's important to support event organisers because they help keep the community alive which leads to more people watching streams. (Don't bite the hand that feeds you, as it were)

The real issue here is Coh2's lack of custom game tools that prevents people you don't want observing from observing. You can create a 15 minute delay with password bypass, but to spectate live in practically every RTS game you have to be in the lobby, so the official casters naturally are the only ones doing it. It's still worth doing the password though, having a 15 minute delay would discourage people from watching alternative streams compared to the official stream which is live.

I would also say there needs to be more emphasis on making sure all these replays actually get posted, most of the replays from events such as King of the Hill never get posted (and I'm guessing many of these replays from the weekend weren't posted), so if I wanted to cast those replays I would have to do so live for myself. You can't really say "Oh can you just cast the replays later on so you don't compete with our stream" but then the replays don't actually get posted.

I think from 2vs2 Cup all replays got uploaded atleast in the Replay section. But not in the Replay thread to collect them. Sadly. Yes in the past alot of replays where missing i agree at this point.
It would be create if players would take more care about this.

About the whole PW thing:

If you go for like 15 min delay with PW. Then the caster self have to use the PW but then wait like 3 min until they start stream it live. Reason:
If they would stream the game without delay, which you don't have with the PW, friend of the player could watch the stream and tell the player what to do...

I see a lot of misinformation in this thread (and everyone is dog piling on hans) so I feel compelled to come to Han's defense since technically he didn't do anything wrong. Things could have been handled better but that can be said about both sides.

Firstly, people are citing twitch TOS on restreaming and rebroadcasting but I'd argue Hans didnt break the TOS. While it would have been polite to ask if he could restream, Hans is under no obligation to do so. If the official broadcasters didn't prohibit restreaming beforehand, it is considered fair game. We have seen this countless times on Twitch as streamers have rebroadcasted Blizzard, Valve, Nintendo, and Twitch Interactive streams and, most importantly, other twitch streamers' streams. Now speaking of etiquette, it is considered poor taste to retroactively revoke restreaming rights after the fact and/or claim copyright. In regards to copyright, Hans added his own commentary so it can be defended under fair use since hans transformed the original work by adding his own commentary; no one is taking this to court so it is a moot point but I wanted to show the ambiguity in this. Ultimately if the content creator wants to go down this road, they can usually get the rebroadcast removed but it causes needless bad blood with the rebroadcaster & the community. As stated before, this situation could have been avoided if the broadcasters explicitly stated the event couldn't be rebroadcast.

As for some of the other accusations being levied against Hans, most of them don't hold water. Stormless said the tournament organizers & casters are denied viewership and donations but is this really the case? Let me point out the simple fact that HelpingHans is the only full time CoH2 & variety streamer as well as being a signed Complexity streamer. It is easier to argue that Hans directed viewers to the official stream rather than the other way around. If you're watching the official stream, you wouldn't notice that Hans is restreaming it but if you're watching Han's stream, you might not even be aware there is a tourny going on or know of the casters. Let us not forgot Hans' contribution to the community by introducing his variety stream viewers to CoH2 so even if Hans was "leaching" viewers, Hans still contributed a net positive gain to CoH2 viewership; as the saying goes, a rising tide raises all ships.

As for denying donations, I don't see how this makes sense or how Stormless came to this conclusion. If I wanted to donate to Hans, I'm going to be donating to Hans regardless of who else is streaming. The opposite is also true, I'm going to donate to the tourny pool regardless of who else is streaming. As stated before, if anything, Hans probably helped the official stream get donations since Hans introduced a portion of his viewers to this tournament and of these new viewers, it is conceivable a portion of them donated to support the tourny. These theoreticals aside, Hans has access to the donation log. He can tell us if he saw some insane 1000% increase in donations because he "leached" donations or as I expect, they remained constant with his usual numbers. If this remains a point of contention, Hans can always just give the donations he made in that hour to the official stream.

Speaking of points of contention, Stormless tried to slip this in unnoticed and it should stick out to you due to the implicit assumption. Im referring to Stormless' quote, "If you would like to cast or broadcast games from the event, we would ask anyone who wants chances to cast or wants to get involved to send us a message just to politely ask for permission first." The implicit assumption in asking for permission is that you need the official broadcaster's permission because they have exclusivity rights to these games. For someone getting antsy about streaming rights, you should know that no one owns the rights to these games. If they are on the spectate list, anyone can spectate & stream them. This is what Hans did that the OP forgot to mention so within this controversial stream, Hans stopped rebroadcasting to do his own broadcast from the game client. It is unfair to leave this point out since the OP makes it sound like Hans rebroadcasted the entire stream.

I agree it is polite to ask for permission but no one is under an obligation to do so. If the tourny organizers want more control & exclusivity over their tournament matches, they should password protect the game lobbies so they can stream them live or with a short delay while people, without the password, would have to stream it on a much longer delay. I forget what tourny did this but it has been done before. If this isn't possible anymore, talk to relic for better broadcaster tools (It should be noted the main reason Hans rebroadcasted the official stream is because relic's spectate tools are outdated as you can't skip forwards or backwards). The tourny organizers can also seek for exclusive rights to these specific games or push Relic to DMCA spectator streamers, similar to what Riot did to StarLordLucian (which was predicated on exclusivity rights).

In closing, Hans could have been more courteous and ask for permission first but he is not under a strict obligation to do so due to the official tourny organizers not putting these simple preventative measures in place. I would be more on the tourny organizers' side if they didn't misrepresent Hans & make some dubious accusations. If the tourny organizers wanted to be judicious, they should have just made a blanket statement that future restreaming of the tourny is prohibited rather than single out Hans as well as the thinly veiled threat of DMCA takedown against Hans. If the OP was worded more magnanimous, I don't believe Hans would have responded as hostile as he did.

*lot's of misinformed words, essentially about nothing*

Even if your statement was accurate (which it isn't), it still doesn't excuse the fact, that on a basic human level, Hans fucked over his friends (both Stormless and AE, whom he had stayed the night with) and a 3 year sub of his channel, who has literally been paying him to play games.

I'm sorry, you can write as many shit posts as you like, with 10 million words, it does not excuse this behaviour on any level.


Anyway, I'm looking forward to your "Relic has ruined my life" post coming soon.

The annoying thing is with that is that all players can see this password (we've tested it), and as it's merely a bypass delay password it can then be used for cheating/ live coaching, and we can't track who leaked it.

Relic didnt think the system through and if you recall actually bailed on passwords midway through ESL.

The only time it will be useful will be at GCS2 live tourney Cus the players won't be able to communicate with the outside world.

Can people please read my point here, am I only one that understands how flawed the password system is. All players see the bypass delay password and could pass it on to friends. It is no solution.

Can people please read my point here, am I only one that understands how flawed the password system is. All players see the bypass delay password and could pass it on to friends. It is no solution.

I did mention the broadcaster tools are outdated and Relic should update them or give tourny organizers some type of special tools to help them broadcast.

I see a lot of misinformation in this thread (and everyone is dog piling on hans) so I feel compelled to come to Han's defense since technically he didn't do anything wrong. Things could have been handled better but that can be said about both sides.

Firstly, people are citing twitch TOS on restreaming and rebroadcasting but I'd argue Hans didnt break the TOS. While it would have been polite to ask if he could restream, Hans is under no obligation to do so. If the official broadcasters didn't prohibit restreaming beforehand, it is considered fair game. We have seen this countless times on Twitch as streamers have rebroadcasted Blizzard, Valve, Nintendo, and Twitch Interactive streams and, most importantly, other twitch streamers' streams. Now speaking of etiquette, it is considered poor taste to retroactively revoke restreaming rights after the fact and/or claim copyright. In regards to copyright, Hans added his own commentary so it can be defended under fair use since hans transformed the original work by adding his own commentary; no one is taking this to court so it is a moot point but I wanted to show the ambiguity in this. Ultimately if the content creator wants to go down this road, they can usually get the rebroadcast removed but it causes needless bad blood with the rebroadcaster & the community. As stated before, this situation could have been avoided if the broadcasters explicitly stated the event couldn't be rebroadcast.

You're objectively wrong.
https://help.twitch.tv/customer/portal/articles/735191-terms-of-service
The twitch TOS explicitly states that, for any content you stream, "[you have agreed that] you are the creator and owner of the User Content or otherwise have sufficient rights and authority to grant the rights granted herein".

Hans directly restreamed the UTT stream without permission. It's in direct violation of TOS.

Using Blizzard, Valve and other AAA companies as an example is stupid because far more often that not these companies give EXPLICIT permission for anybody to stream their events. It's the same with E3.

You're objectively wrong. https://help.twitch.tv/customer/portal/articles/735191-terms-of-service
The twitch TOS explicit states that "[you have agreed that] you are the creator and owner of the User Content or otherwise have sufficient rights and authority to grant the rights granted herein" for any User Content you stream.

Hans directly restreamed the UTT stream without permission. It's in direct violation of TOS.

His whole post is wrong, from the beginning to the end. He just likes the sound of his own voice.

Hans made a mistake, Let's hope he learnt from it and everyone as well. Is is necessary to go any further?

His whole post is wrong, from the beginning to the end. He just likes the sound of his own voice.

I chose to not address the rest of his post because it's actually quite a lot of work to provide links and evidence to why nearly everything he said was not only wrong but really quite stupid.

I chose to address his first point because it's the one that is most blatantly wrong and easy to disprove.

Twitch has banned countless accounts for restreaming streams without explicit permission.

A recent example from the dota community is GrandGrant who got banned a few months ago for restreaming titty streamers.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/62mm8t/amazs_twitch_channel_was_just_banned_due_to_terms/
A quick google search reveals a player called amazs got banned for violating the same rule of the twitch TOS (restreaming a blizzard event he didn't have permission to restream).

Hans is under no obligation to do so. If the official broadcasters didn't prohibit restreaming beforehand, it is considered fair game.

Streaming the Tournament


We would appreciate it if you do not stream our tournament, so that we can attract as many viewers for the official stream as possible. Consider it a donation to the tournament.

^ This is was written on the UTT tournament page originally by a close friend of James. Someone who was a 3 year sub to Hans... You can do your own morales on that and if you believe Hans made a valuable contribution to the the community then fine.


Also how is it not wrong? It's the same concept as going to a boxing match and livestreaming the event to Twitch. It's not your content. It is factual unauthorised broadcasting. You don't need to make your own moral judgements about this. It is written on the Twitch terms of conduct so that you don't have to guess what is right and what is wrong. Hans didn't even bother to observe the game he actually opened AE's stream to cast from it.

For someone who's entire income is based around Twitch I would have thought stepping into this territory might be considered risky. It might be worth reading those guidelines.

With regards to donations, streamers make money from advertising revenue, subs and donations. All things that could have been denied. Tournament Organisers have a right to schedule and run their own event. I'm fully aware we can't stop people broadcasting it. But it's written in the rules and it's about a level of human decency which is what this post is about.

Any of you could be streaming this event. But most people and players don't because they have the concensus on what is morally right and wrong to do. Stream 1v1 or another game. Don't s*** all over your friends and people who put on tournaments for you to play in.

This aint LoL or CS:GO bro, you make your own exclusiveness.

Be glad that your tourneys get picked up by other people and make the effort to actually spread your tourney name. You should provide the hype & the extra for the people so they come to your channel. Invite the big streamers, make them mod, whatever. Make sure your Twitch channel > theirs at the time of the tourney.

And the whole 'organizing is a pain in the ass-thing', what a load of horse***.

Even if your statement was accurate (which it isn't), it still doesn't excuse the fact, that on a basic human level, Hans fucked over his friends (both Stormless and AE, whom he had stayed the night with) and a 3 year sub of his channel, who has literally been paying him to play games.

I'm sorry, you can write as many shit posts as you like, with 10 million words, it does not excuse this behaviour on any level.


Anyway, I'm looking forward to your "Relic has ruined my life" post coming soon.

Nuf said.

Okay here we go:

First off, I think Hans definately made a mistake here. Casting the tournament games without asking, and giving the linked statement, seemed like a bitter childish thing to do. Easiest would have been to just ask the tournament organisers beforehand instead of pulling the salty one.

As for the direct rebroadcasting: One and done for me although the reasons for doing this were laughable at best.

Now for the general things: In this small community, I can understand, that everyone wants to have a piece of the cake because it is not very big. Nobody should be denied their right to stream CoH even during tournaments but just stay away from the tournament games if you haven't a permission to cast them.

I get the point, that if multiple bigger CoH2 Streamers are streaming them, it gains more attention, but it still promotes a split-up that isn't necessary. Best way to watch a tourney is with all the people at one place and not within a trench warfare because of streamer bias.

Long story short: This issue isn't as big as it is made right now. The case just provides tournament organisers with a case to make in their rules which will regard the streaming schedule of a tournamant, and who is allowed to cast it.

This aint LoL or CS:GO bro, you make your own exclusiveness.

Be glad that your tourneys get picked up by other people and make the effort to actually spread your tourney name. You should provide the hype & the extra for the people so they come to your channel. Invite the big streamers, make them mod, whatever. Make sure your Twitch channel > theirs at the time of the tourney.

And the whole 'organizing is a pain in the ass-thing', what a load of horse***.

I don't think, that Stormless is mad about Hans giving the tournament more attention through his reach. It is the style to do that which is in question here. Instead of putting a show on like it was shown in the video, this could have been discussed beforehand. As it is now, it seemed like a rather selfish move by Hans.

This aint LoL or CS:GO bro, you make your own exclusiveness.

Be glad that your tourneys get picked up by other people and make the effort to actually spread your tourney name. You should provide the hype & the extra for the people so they come to your channel. Invite the big streamers, make them mod, whatever. Make sure your Twitch channel > theirs at the time of the tourney.

And the whole 'organizing is a pain in the ass-thing', what a load of horse***.

You literally kicked up an even bigger stink than this, when this exact thing happened to your tournament. You must have amnesia.

You literally kicked up an even bigger stink than this, when this exact thing happened to your tournament. You must have amnesia.

Is this when Devlish broadcast Kreatir's event without asking and Kreatir quit the community and left the scene?

Welp, sad i only see this thread now. I could go on and make a super long post, but there is no point in it because:
1. A lot would just be repeating what Stormless A_E and Sturmpanther already stated.
2. It wouldn't change the behaviour of the people that did something wrong (in my eyes) here. For example Hans (he is just an example, more people like him (this isn't a personal attack hans, but in my eyes its true) are around in this community which i can't change so ill just live with it). If you look at the posts Hans made in this thread you see around 10% of him regretting and around 90% of him being unsocial. So many things you said Hans, can be turned around easily.
- "Next time I'll just use the spectate mode, at-least that way viewers won't miss important moments of a match. " I see this as an atempt of trying to insult A_E that he misses important moments of the match. Kind of childish in my eyes, but again its just me i respect people who see it differently
- "I think it is you that needs to get off your high horse" "if anything I am making the tournament better with my insights." Ehm, who is on a high horse here?
- "Have any of you ever once asked me to cast a tournament on my channel?" Did you ever ask it?
- "I'm always having to step aside for others, please tell me HOW ON EARTH IS THAT FAIR." You not casting the games isnt you stepping aside. It's you not profiting from the organisation work others did.
- "You claim to be my friend and here you are trying to restrict me to what I can and can't do." If you were a real friend you would see the work that your friends do and you would respect it. By for example not streaming games, or even not streaming at all.


I'll just stop talking about Hans and other people who did or did not do this, but in my eyes it's all a problem of the respect of the work that others are doing and trying to profit from others because you are too lazy or you are just don't have respect from others.



Anyways I can't stop anyone from broadcasting something, there is nothing i can do about it. You can stream whatever you want, but you will lose the respect of some people (definitely of me) and you can't cry about losing that respect afterwards. This ain't the first time something like this happened and ive tried different things myself as an organiser to stop this. For example asking in the article if nobody would please stream the games or by mssging people on steam and asking them. But there is nothing i can do apart from asking, can't force you to do something. There is no solution for this apart from learning to respect the work others did or just by asking someone if you can stream the games of their tournament and to learn to take no for an answer.


I agree with Stromless, A_E and Sturmpanther and there is no need to quote me if anyone would want to reply to my post. Bcs i won't reply back, no need for a shit storm. Let's just all move on from now and learn from this situation

You guys misunderstand it. I'm saying in the past hans has been literally asked not to stream 1v1,2v2 any CoH2 at all. And back then TO's did wnat all the views by the looks of it.
Now you guys might accept it and such but back then it wasn't. And that the whole thing before the incident let up to hans reacting i can do what i want!

As thats a result coming from the past building up. you cant single out this incident without those moments. TO's might have changed today but back then it wasn't and thats my point.
Why hans reacted in the way he did.

"Has Been" prefers to the past when hans was literally asked that.
So explain how can someone demand such a thing without wanting all the views? remember BACK then (means in the past) he was asked not to stream ANY CoH2 during event.

All this post does is map out the thought process behind justification.

The last thing I'm interested in is the thought process behind justifying something.

What a shitty post!