Community-Patch: Further rework of Commanders?

I'm just wondering if there is a plan to rework some more commanders to make the game more versatile at commander choices? Every faction has some hilarious up commanders, a rework of 2-3 per faction would be a great thing. I really appreciate the changes that were made to some commanders in the last community patch.

Imo the rework of commander should be with another approach:
1) Check all abilities that are Op or Up and bring them inline.
2) Redesign individual commander so that they do not combine certain abilities like:
Super heavies/ mainline infantry upgrades (example G43/Tiger)
Super heavies/ powerful off maps (ISU-152/ IL bombing)

and so on.

Imo the rework of commander should be with another approach:
1) Check all abilities that are Op or Up and bring them inline.
2) Redesign individual commander so that they do not combine certain abilities like:
Super heavies/ mainline infantry upgrades (example G43/Tiger)
Super heavies/ powerful off maps (ISU-152/ IL bombing)

and so on.

Absolutely there are a handful of commanders around, that give you five very useful abilities in different sectors. The game would be more fun without such commanders. That way commander choices would be even more tactical in team games.

What commanders do you think are under or over preforming just out of curiosity?

What commanders do you think are under or over preforming just out of curiosity?

If the question is directed to me, I did not mention commanders that are OP or UP but commander abilities that should be brought in line.

That does not mean that they should become the same since faction design is part of the power of commander abilities. Commander abilities should balanced keeping in mind the faction design, if faction X is designed to have powerful infantry the call in infantry should reflect that.

(usually OP and UP commanders can be identified by the meta although some time people stick to the meta so much so that they fail to discover new things that are OP. For instance DshK was broken for a very long time before it become meta)

What commanders do you think are underused and should be reworked, or do you wish to just shake the meta by making other commanders more viable?

I personally wouldn't mind other less viable commanders to be reworked - and keep the current meta intact.

For starters it would be good if the Eastern Front Armies had some commanders redone so there was less overlap with the old "Premium" or current meta commanders that are just straight up better in every way. (For Example Anti-Infantry Tactics is just a poor mans Shock Rifle and will NEVER get used). WFA is just a matter of fixing the 1 or 2 commanders that didn't make the cut last time around (Elite Armor and Overwatch for OKW Etc.)

To be really honest, Ostheer requres thouse commanders reworks the most. While Soviet has obliviously best commanders compare to other factions, by that I mean that while they have some clearly the most usefull ones, aside from a few, they all can be used effectively.

Fun fact, while soviets DLC commanders, thouse ones which were added after launch of the game, are kinda meh after all changes. Ostheers best commanders are the ones from post launch DLCs. Their original commanders are really shitty. While in community guide all factions has T1, T2 ect commanders, only Ostheer has ones that you clearly wont use at all.

If the question is directed to me, I did not mention commanders that are OP or UP but commander abilities that should be brought in line.

That does not mean that they should become the same since faction design is part of the power of commander abilities. Commander abilities should balanced keeping in mind the faction design, if faction X is designed to have powerful infantry the call in infantry should reflect that.

(usually OP and UP commanders can be identified by the meta although some time people stick to the meta so much so that they fail to discover new things that are OP. For instance DshK was broken for a very long time before it become meta)

its not directed at anyone nor am I attacking anyone, just asking

Imo the rework of commander should be with another approach:
1) Check all abilities that are Op or Up and bring them inline.
2) Redesign individual commander so that they do not combine certain abilities like:
Super heavies/ mainline infantry upgrades (example G43/Tiger)
Super heavies/ powerful off maps (ISU-152/ IL bombing)

and so on.

Agreed.

To be really honest, Ostheer requres thouse commanders reworks the most. While Soviet has obliviously best commanders compare to other factions, by that I mean that while they have some clearly the most usefull ones, aside from a few, they all can be used effectively.

Agreed. Festung Armor, German Mechanized and Blitzkrieg are my personal favorites since they're about diversity rather than power, as with most of Ost's early docs. I'm not really sure how you would even approach making some of these worthwhile again though, Relic really screwed the pooch when they became obsessed with taking the the hallmarks of flexible doctrines and jamming a Tiger into them, AKA The Lightning War Problem.

its not directed at anyone nor am I attacking anyone, just asking

I did not felt attacked. This thread seems to be more civilized than the average. I simply was not sure if you where asking for a response from me, but it seems it was general question.

The point I was trying to make is that for me its not about fixing a commander that is OP or UP. It is more about better balancing the commander abilities separately and better designing the commanders themselves.

Situation is unfixable TBH if you truly want to take a look at all commanders.

Unless you reduce the pool of commanders from this
http://stat.coh2.hu/wm.php
to this
http://stat.coh2.hu/okw.php

Any buff, tweak or nerf to a specific ability will impact another commander which is fine, up or meta.
BECAUSE WFA or UKF have like ±40 abilities/units for 8 commanders when in the case of EFA, they have 21 commanders and ±50 items.

You would need to remove like 5-8 commanders from EFA and redistribute the abilities, to actually make it work.

Situation is unfixable TBH if you truly want to take a look at all commanders.

Unless you reduce the pool of commanders from this
http://stat.coh2.hu/wm.php
to this
http://stat.coh2.hu/okw.php

Any buff, tweak or nerf to a specific ability will impact another commander which is fine, up or meta.
BECAUSE WFA or UKF have like ±40 abilities/units for 8 commanders when in the case of EFA, they have 21 commanders and ±50 items.

You would need to remove like 5-8 commanders from EFA and redistribute the abilities, to actually make it work.

Sounds good to me, tbh. I'd rather fewer more meaningful choices than a lattice of overlapping Venn diagrams.

Sounds good to me, tbh. I'd rather fewer more meaningful choices than a lattice of overlapping Venn diagrams.

Good lucking getting that approved.

Logical ideas???

Imo the rework of commander should be with another approach:
1) Check all abilities that are Op or Up and bring them inline.
2) Redesign individual commander so that they do not combine certain abilities like:
Super heavies/ mainline infantry upgrades (example G43/Tiger)
Super heavies/ powerful off maps (ISU-152/ IL bombing)

and so on.

I get your point but this sounds like you want good commanders to get weaker and not weak commanders to get better.

Any buff, tweak or nerf to a specific ability will impact another commander which is fine, up or meta.

Its not about buffing or nerfing all abilities are fine as they are. Its more of a problem, with commanders itself. But hell ostheer need relief inf and tank fortification tweak to make it something else, and MAYBE it would fix something. Since thouse two ones is a waste, compare to other possible options you can get.

I get your point but this sounds like you want good commanders to get weaker and not weak commanders to get better.

Well commander so should NOT be there to solve actual balance issues.

For instance grenadiers currently are UP and the only reason they still work is the G43. G43 should be an option not a necessity for using grenadiers.

Abilities (other than signature abilities) should be balanced without the commander in mind, and commanders should be designed with specific strong points.

What commanders do you think are under or over preforming just out of curiosity?

So as I spoke of up and op commanders the questions for some examples were directed to me. So I'll give some examples. I have to remark first that like Viper said only a few abilities have to be adjusted or maybe exchanged in rare cases to make it work and change up/op status.


Lets start with the new commando commander first. I think its a good example of a well rounded commander. Very strong AI, smoke and good offmap versus team weapons but no doctrinal AT or doctrinal spamable guaranted-single-hit-killing offmap versus artillery emplacements and the like. Meant to be played agressively, he has strength but he has weaknesses while every commander ability is useful somehow. Interesting for team mechanics/team play in bigger games.


Examples for commanders that have to much good abilities that cover too much blank spots of a faction: Jaeger Armour (Ostheer) or Shock Motor Heavy Tactics (Soviet):

Elephant (with Scope) / ISU-152
Dive Bomb / IL2-Precision Strike
Recon Plane / Increased Repair (Conscripts)
AT-Mine / Elite Infanty (Shock Troops)

Especially in the bigger game modes that have a long late game I don't like this "I have everything I need" in one commander.


Example of an up commander:
Since Wolverine went to tech (and that was a very good decision) there is no reason to take US Armor commander anymore, because you usually took it to skip tech in 1vs1/2vs2 and go for call-ins. Assault engineers scale badly into mid/late and have less meat than other US units, Thompson upgrade for vehicle crews is one of the three worst abilities in this game, M10 is still okay, 240mm off-map is not the best off-map around but okay, Bulldozer is only an option in 1vs1 because of beeing a call-in option. In every other game mode it comes later than Brummbar and is inferior to it in every single way but turnable turret (speed/armour/penetration/AOE/special ability...).
Some tweaks would make it viable: Let assault engineers scale better, exchange Thompson crew upgrade versus something like mines or Tank Commander, bind Bulldozer to tech and buff its AI to Brummbar level. And there you have another specialist commander (like Commando) that gives interestings options without covering any spot by itself. You could even strip the only offmap of it (240mm) and take another tank or vehicle call-in instead (M3/M5/Pershing...). I would like to see more specialist commanders for teamplay.