With the current approach the game would be in much better state if the KT was removed (or become doctrinal) so that AT capabilities of the allied could be toned down to normal levels.
The axis armor could become actually useful and their would be little reason for one to even bother with KT.
Again with current approach one could change the role of the KT and greatly reduce the squad wiping ability making but making damage more consistent, the unit more durable than destructive, so that it acts more like a Churchill.
The effectiveness of allied TD could then go down.
(Imo balancing super heavies separately is a better approach)
What to do with the KT?
28 Mar 2018, 12:15 PM
#41
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
28 Mar 2018, 12:23 PM
#42
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
With the current approach the game would be in much better state if the KT was removed (or become doctrinal) so that AT capabilities of the allied could be toned down to normal levels.
Well, there is still a panther and its not like axis TDs give allied meds a chance to deflect.
And speaking of normal Levels of AT capabilities, I wonder who came up with idea to introduce 400 pen vehicles against 375 max armor faction.
I am genunely curious about the reasoning behind it.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
28 Mar 2018, 12:28 PM
#43
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
...
Well, there is still a panther and its not like axis TDs give allied meds a chance to deflect.
...
In the current situation I personally would rather have an Ostheer Panther with 215 armor (same as easy8) that costed 140 fuel.
28 Mar 2018, 12:37 PM
#44
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
In the current situation I personally would rather have an Ostheer Panther with 215 armor (same as easy8) that costed 140 fuel.
Well, that is one way to do it.
I used to advocate for T34/57 instead of 85 back in the day, which would pretty much be just that.
Both ideas are not really possible.
Imo relic focused way too much on late game tanks in design of coh2, leaving too many interesting light and med vehicles out ouf question.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
28 Mar 2018, 14:17 PM
#45
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Imo the problem is not what to do with KT but what to do with Allied AT.
Imo using KT as benchmark to balance allied TDs creates far more problems than it solves.
If one want to balanced "super heavy tanks" one can try the approach of separate balance by increasing target size to x2 or x3 of that of medium and giving MU with high penetration low accuracy to specific TDs.
Imo using KT as benchmark to balance allied TDs creates far more problems than it solves.
If one want to balanced "super heavy tanks" one can try the approach of separate balance by increasing target size to x2 or x3 of that of medium and giving MU with high penetration low accuracy to specific TDs.
28 Mar 2018, 14:45 PM
#46
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Imo the problem is not what to do with KT but what to do with Allied AT.
Imo using KT as benchmark to balance allied TDs creates far more problems than it solves.
If one want to balanced "super heavy tanks" one can try the approach of separate balance by increasing target size to x2 or x3 of that of medium and giving MU with high penetration low accuracy to specific TDs.
That creates a whole new problem of having to create 3 specialist units to create a single tank of a single faction, unless you want to throw regular tier and panther into that bag as well, in which case brits and USF would be left without stock mechanized answer to meds.
Modders went with "lesser evil" way of high penetration, but lower DPS, which does give meds a fighting chance(which still should not be too big as TDs are still supposed to counter tanks and not only heavy ones).
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
28 Mar 2018, 15:32 PM
#47
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
That creates a whole new problem of having to create 3 specialist units to create a single tank of a single faction, unless you want to throw regular tier and panther into that bag as well, in which case brits and USF would be left without stock mechanized answer to meds.
Modders went with "lesser evil" way of high penetration, but lower DPS, which does give meds a fighting chance(which still should not be too big as TDs are still supposed to counter tanks and not only heavy ones).
No it does not. It can be a simple switchable munition ability.
No, Relic did not chose "lesser evil", allied TDs destroy PzIV very fast even from max range. They simply used the KT as benchmark when balancing allied TDs and they are currently OP vs anything else.
28 Mar 2018, 17:01 PM
#48
Posts: 728
IDK know why this was brought up, KT completely fine as it is, still consistantly wipes vet squads, just not gauranteed on the 2nd main gun shot now. It got exact nerfs it needed and was LONG over due.
28 Mar 2018, 19:33 PM
#49
Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1
Imo the problem is not what to do with KT but what to do with Allied AT.
Imo using KT as benchmark to balance allied TDs creates far more problems than it solves.
If one want to balanced "super heavy tanks" one can try the approach of separate balance by increasing target size to x2 or x3 of that of medium and giving MU with high penetration low accuracy to specific TDs.
The issue is the KT has to be because if Allied TDs cant pen the KT then its too strong, thats the big reason why a nondoc superheavy is bad faction design.
If the KT was Doctrinal than it could be balanced as a very strong late game heavy, but if they did the same with it being nondoc than we will return to KT instant win meta which was awful.
At the same time this makes TDs really effective against nonsuper heavies because they are basically guaranteed pens and high damage.
bg /l
28 Mar 2018, 19:35 PM
#50
Posts: 450
Needs to be cheaper or the turret needs to rotate faster. More range could help too.
28 Mar 2018, 19:46 PM
#51
Posts: 868 | Subs: 5
I know that the KT needs support, but that doesn't mean that it's scatter has to be so bad. Also I never said that the KT having to fight TDs was an issue, I was just stating a fact. Also the armor of the KT and the penetration of allied TDs wasnt changed recently, so im not sure why you are bringing up allied TDs ability to dent the KTs armor. The main thing that changed is that the Jackson got overbuffed.
=========
The Jackson was not overbuffed per se. It used to have lower pen, lower health but higher dmg.
So it raped Pz4s. Now, they lowered dmg and increased pen, so, yea, it can now eat into the KT.
But it does less dmg per hit. Even the tungsten ammo shot does less dmg per shot.
Essentially, it's now weaker vs Pz4 and stronger vs KT.
KT is no longer the insta win thing to strive for (with huge advantage in 4vs4 since all 4 OKW
players could spawn it together).
People complain the Soviets are useless.
Well, they are useless if you fight your units 1vs1. But they are all about Synergy.
What do I care if you have a Panther? Once you are crippled from running over a mine
I wait until you repair it with your 3x SturmPioneers and tell my 3x Mortars to fire at it.
did you know Vet 1 Mortars get FLARE?!
- 900 Manpower down the drain. - Panther still can't move worth a damn.
Well, they are useless if you fight your units 1vs1. But they are all about Synergy.
What do I care if you have a Panther? Once you are crippled from running over a mine
I wait until you repair it with your 3x SturmPioneers and tell my 3x Mortars to fire at it.
did you know Vet 1 Mortars get FLARE?!
- 900 Manpower down the drain. - Panther still can't move worth a damn.
28 Mar 2018, 19:56 PM
#52
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
The issue is the KT ...
And this is what I posted.
Remove/make doctrinal or balance separately or change role.
Having KT as the benchmark for allied TDs creates more problems than it solves.
28 Mar 2018, 19:56 PM
#53
Posts: 868 | Subs: 5
No it does not. It can be a simple switchable munition ability.
No, Relic did not chose "lesser evil", allied TDs destroy PzIV very fast even from max range. They simply used the KT as benchmark when balancing allied TDs and they are currently OP vs anything else.
============
SU85 lost late vet super ROF for extra pen (extra pen useless vs Pz4) = Nerfed vs Pz4
Jackson lost 240 dmg shot for 160 dmg shot for extra pen (extra pen is useless vs Pz4) = Nerfed vs Pz4
Firefly tulips nerfed hard. And it's dmg also nerfed in exchange for extra pen (extra pen useless vs Pz4)
= Nerfed vs Pz4.
People complain the Soviets are useless.
Well, they are useless if you fight your units 1vs1. But they are all about Synergy.
What do I care if you have a Panther? Once you are crippled from running over a mine
I wait until you repair it with your 3x SturmPioneers and tell my 3x Mortars to fire at it.
did you know Vet 1 Mortars get FLARE?!
- 900 Manpower down the drain. - Panther still can't move worth a damn.
Well, they are useless if you fight your units 1vs1. But they are all about Synergy.
What do I care if you have a Panther? Once you are crippled from running over a mine
I wait until you repair it with your 3x SturmPioneers and tell my 3x Mortars to fire at it.
did you know Vet 1 Mortars get FLARE?!
- 900 Manpower down the drain. - Panther still can't move worth a damn.
28 Mar 2018, 19:58 PM
#54
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
============
SU85 lost late vet super ROF for extra pen (extra pen useless vs Pz4) = Nerfed vs Pz4
Jackson lost 240 dmg shot for 160 dmg shot for extra pen (extra pen is useless vs Pz4) = Nerfed vs Pz4
Firefly tulips nerfed hard. And it's dmg also nerfed in exchange for extra pen (extra pen useless vs Pz4)
= Nerfed vs Pz4.
Su-85 can deal with PzIV just fine so can Su-76.
M36 kill PzIV faster since it over-killed
FF can still kill with 2 shots 2 tullips.
28 Mar 2018, 20:00 PM
#55
Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1
And this is what I posted.
Remove/make doctrinal or balance separately or change role.
Having KT as the benchmark for allied TDs creates more problems than it solves.
Sorry, I skimmed the new posts real quick probably missed it.
bg /l
28 Mar 2018, 20:08 PM
#56
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Su-85 can deal with PzIV just fine so can Su-76.
ITs still less effective against it then it used to be - that is his whole point.
M36 kill PzIV faster since it over-killed
Lone M36 sure, M36 with any kind of support takes longer - 1 AT nade meant P4 will go down in 3 shots, now it still takes 4.
FF can still kill with 2 shots 2 tullips.
It was not able to do it without tulips before due to shooting once every full moon, it got a buff which it badly needed as it was worst TD in the whole game with lowest DPS by far and still is - muni heavy tulips is pretty much the only thing that made it viable pre buff and as long as you move, you're perfectly safe from tulips.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
28 Mar 2018, 20:09 PM
#57
Posts: 911
Jackson lost 240 dmg shot for 160 dmg shot for extra pen (extra pen is useless vs Pz4) = Nerfed vs Pz4
Incorrect, you are comparing Prepatch HVAP (240) to postpatch non-HVAP (160) when postpatch HVAP does 200 damage. In essence HVAP was unchanged except for more pen.
Imagine my playercard is here
28 Mar 2018, 20:36 PM
#58
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Su-85
The accuracy bonus make SU-85 better vs mediums
The rotation makes SU-85 better vs mediums
The smaller target size makes SU-85 better vs medium
The unit is actually buffed considerably for small increase in cost while maintaining lower XP value and Pop.
Even if it used to shoot faster having a the change to hit a PzIV increased from 55% to 88% at max ranged is over-weighted.
Firefly
Lower reload makes FF better vs all targets
FF now need 2 tullip to land to kill a medium but now blind tanks
Changes to accuracy have little impact when stationary due to commander and mid range 45.
M36
Reduce reload make M36 better vs medium
Damage change does not effect number of hits to kill
The unit is actually buffed considerably while maintaining lower XP value.
To sum up these TDs become better vs heavily armored vehicles nullifying PzIV armor bonus while losing very little against the PzIV. These unit can not Hit and Penetrate a PzIV at max range reliably while the veterancy of the PzIV does not really help it.
The accuracy bonus make SU-85 better vs mediums
The rotation makes SU-85 better vs mediums
The smaller target size makes SU-85 better vs medium
The unit is actually buffed considerably for small increase in cost while maintaining lower XP value and Pop.
Even if it used to shoot faster having a the change to hit a PzIV increased from 55% to 88% at max ranged is over-weighted.
Firefly
Lower reload makes FF better vs all targets
FF now need 2 tullip to land to kill a medium but now blind tanks
Changes to accuracy have little impact when stationary due to commander and mid range 45.
M36
Reduce reload make M36 better vs medium
Damage change does not effect number of hits to kill
The unit is actually buffed considerably while maintaining lower XP value.
To sum up these TDs become better vs heavily armored vehicles nullifying PzIV armor bonus while losing very little against the PzIV. These unit can not Hit and Penetrate a PzIV at max range reliably while the veterancy of the PzIV does not really help it.
28 Mar 2018, 20:44 PM
#59
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Medium tanks armor is NOT supposed to protect them from TDs.
What would be the point of TD if it was otherwise?
P4 armor bonus is supposed to give edge against mediums, not their own hardcounters which cost MORE then them.
What would be the point of TD if it was otherwise?
P4 armor bonus is supposed to give edge against mediums, not their own hardcounters which cost MORE then them.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
28 Mar 2018, 21:13 PM
#60
Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1
Medium tanks armor is NOT supposed to protect them from TDs.
What would be the point of TD if it was otherwise?
P4 armor bonus is supposed to give edge against mediums, not their own hardcounters which cost MORE then them.
The idea that FF, SU-85 and M36 should be able to hard counter from range 60 frontally medium, premiums and Super heavy alike, making PzIV obsolete, is simply flawed.
The claim that allied TDs become better vs super heavies but worse than PzIV also holds no water.
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