Performance and cost efficiency of massed SU76s vs SU85

wait the FOW penality is only 25 % for all units ?

As far as I know yes (x125%). The scatter distance max is upper limit and can not exceeded thou angular scatter should be affected normally for all values.

As far as I know yes (x125%). The scatter distance max is upper limit and can not exceeded thou angular scatter should be affected normally for all values.

then we ask ourself why the indrect fire is so strong in this game, there is almost no penality to firing without vision obviusly moratr random wipes with aa always

A SU76 should be able to damage an Elefant yes, as much as a Puma, a stug or a jpz4 should be able to damage Allied late game tanks. And wonderfully they all do.
Now maybe the SU76 vet too fast, maybe it can be twicked but nerfing it to the way it becomes useless after a certain point of the game is going against design where we want all units to be relevant all the game long. You build your SU76/PUMA/Jpz4/STUG, you fight with it, you keep it alive, you vet it, your reward is to be able to use it vs bigger cats.

The problem you are exposing is clearly that it can be spammed. It is far easier to spam and vet three SU76 than one alone and since on teamgame, the number of potential targets is higher, they vet way faster than usual. Does it means that it is the case on 1vs1, definitively not so you can't simply nerf its stat and vet.
How to make sure the unit stay relevant on 1vs1 and cannot be spammed on teamgame, they are probably different options, the one I propose is simple: increase its popcap, it doesn't affect much the player on 1vs1 and it reduce SOV players army size and reinforcement power if he decides to spam them on teamgame.

^ I've never agreed more. Well said

Well, we all know how popular the unit was when it couldn't stand up to weakest med armor.
It was a meme unit before.

There is a ocean of balance between hardcountering med armor and not standing up to it.

There is a ocean of balance between hardcountering med armor and not standing up to it.

As much as I am aware of it, I am also aware that these balance spectrum is always ignored for the extremes.
I do not have complete and blind faith in modders as they too have proven to go to extremes at times and with how long it takes between patches, I'd rather be safe then sorry.

As much as I am aware of it, I am also aware that these balance spectrum is always ignored for the extremes.
I do not have complete and blind faith in modders as they too have proven to go to extremes at times and with how long it takes between patches, I'd rather be safe then sorry.

You think this thread has that impact? Never took you for an optimist.
Regardless, I prefer not to take into account what might and might not happen. It only muddle's the water.

I'd rather be safe then sorry.

I bet there is a certain chance that every minor patch like the Jerry Can HD Texture fix might bring the autoloaders back tbh

As much as I am aware of it, I am also aware that these balance spectrum is always ignored for the extremes.
I do not have complete and blind faith in modders as they too have proven to go to extremes at times and with how long it takes between patches, I'd rather be safe then sorry.

relic:"it's either i eat (the buffet) or smash !!!! (with the nerf slegdhammer)" literally Neanderthal

Their range needs to come down to normal tank destroyer levels (pretty much all TDs have 50 range except the SU-76 which for some reason has 60) and their penetration needs to come down such that they're less effective than their weight in SU-85s versus a heavy tank.

wat

stug is the only TD to not have 60 range.


The su-76 just need lower pen. down to about 120/140/160

Well, we all know how popular the unit was when it couldn't stand up to weakest med armor.
It was a meme unit before.

back then it only had 320 hp. since then they were buffed to 400 HP.

a cheap 400 HP with 60 range is immensely useful.

It shouldn't have high enough penetration to threaten heavy tank.

Su-76 is OP? Careful or you'll upset some fanboys.

The entire cost/performance argument is utterly flawed.

A tank could die from two hits in 100% of cases and be penetrated by all shots all the time, and bringing out four, five, or six alongside a serious infantry presence would STILL be blatantly broken.

Why? Because a tank is immune to small arms fire but damages everything well, including small arms wielding infantry. That means that having more tanks than your opponent is always the superior position to be in, especially given how in CoH2 tanks hard counter their own hard counters.

This isn't unique to Soviets either. It's absurd that factions with infantry that blatantly outperforms Axis infantry get to field as many or MORE infantry squads and ALSO get to fill the field with numerous tanks.

As much as I am aware of it, I am also aware that these balance spectrum is always ignored for the extremes.
I do not have complete and blind faith in modders as they too have proven to go to extremes at times and with how long it takes between patches, I'd rather be safe then sorry.

Any changes are safe when you don't even play the game

This isn't unique to Soviets either. It's absurd that factions with infantry that blatantly outperforms Axis infantry get to field as many or MORE infantry squads and ALSO get to fill the field with numerous tanks.

If you think the Allied factions are outright superior in every way then why not simply play the Allied factions?

If you think the Allied factions are outright superior in every way then why not simply play the Allied factions?

What kind of sociopath plays games based on their mechanics instead of the creative content behind them?

Nobody plays the Alliance in World of Warcraft because they have the night elf racial that allows you to stealth while standing still. They play them because of the concept/lore of the Alliance as a faction, and the rivalry created between Alliance and Horde factions is part of what made the game so much more successful than any of the PvE-only MMORPGs throughout the years where all player characters are on the same side.

Nobody plays the US Army in WWII games because of some numbers in their unit/character/class/weapon stats. They play the US Army because they love the ping from the Garand and the propaganda and the values of the soldiers and so forth -- all creative things that describe the faction, not things that define the technical gameplay.

Every time someone brings up this lame argument, I can't help but wonder how divorced from any kind of creative drive and inspiration someone has to be to consider which game/faction/etc. to play based on some kind of cold, calculated consideration of mechanics entirely.

No, I'm fairly sure people playing strategy games to a competitive level choose factions based on whether or not they're good at winning the game.

COH 2's a strategy game. You pick the faction to fit the strategy.

What kind of sociopath plays games based on their mechanics instead of the creative content behind them?

Every single competitive one ever.
Never wondered even for a second why all the pros play all 5 factions?
That is to be ready with them all for tournament to best pick their counters and factions to the map and strat to give themselves more edge.

Nobody plays the Alliance in World of Warcraft because they have the night elf racial that allows you to stealth while standing still. They play them because of the concept/lore of the Alliance as a faction, and the rivalry created between Alliance and Horde factions is part of what made the game so much more successful than any of the PvE-only MMORPGs throughout the years where all player characters are on the same side.

People were abandoning their class/faction to roll something that had a 1% edge over others in arena pvp.
Every single competitive person did.

You are talking about casual masses, not competitive players who pushed to be best.

Nobody plays the US Army in WWII games because of some numbers in their unit/character/class/weapon stats. They play the US Army because they love the ping from the Garand and the propaganda and the values of the soldiers and so forth -- all creative things that describe the faction, not things that define the technical gameplay.

Nope, the flavor is only part of the pick. If you're competitive, you go for what's strongest/easiest/meta.
If minesweeper pio will grant easy win, everyone will play ost and spam sweeper pios.
March Deployment patch of first year is the definitive proof of that for CoH2.

Every time someone brings up this lame argument, I can't help but wonder how divorced from any kind of creative drive and inspiration someone has to be to consider which game/faction/etc. to play based on some kind of cold, calculated consideration of mechanics entirely.

That is literally how any competitive scene ever works.
You think people pick AK in CS:GO because they like being blyat saviet?
Or why in tournament setting in MOBAs only a handful of meta heroes are being picked, completely ignoring all other ones, because they are too weak/non competitive regardless of how "fun" they are?
Rule of cool applies exclusively to IPs where fans are completely and zealously devoted to their pick, like in Star Wars, WH40k or talked here WW2 and even there that rule is thrown out of the window the very moment competitive scene arises.

If people didn't pick "OP", you wouldn't had search % swings like we have seen through the history of COH. The UKF released showed us that all those people playing massively axis on 3v3+, didn't suddenly fell in love with the faction concept rather than hop in the ez mode train.

What kind of sociopath plays games based on their mechanics instead of the creative content behind them?

Every single competitive one ever.
Never wondered even for a second why all the pros play all 5 factions?
That is to be ready with them all for tournament to best pick their counters and factions to the map and strat to give themselves more edge.

Adding to this.
If he was talking in general... I guess he doesn't know people who value gameplay > graphics cause that's what basically screams to me. Also, i think he would find repulsive those people who play FPS and put all setting to low so they can have +144 constant FPS. It seems someone need to broad up their view.

- SU76 is quasi the price of the T34/76
- StuIIIG is quasi same price/comes out at same time as SU76.
- StuIIIG has more health, more armor, has an MG. Does 160 dmg. Has Stun.
- SU76 has less armor, less health, no MG, no Stun. Does 120 dmg.

- StuIIIG can solo heavies w vet. SU76 cannot Solo any medium tank or up.

Buff it but raise it's pop ? But then you might as well put SU85 in T3.

I have an idea.

Put SU76 in T4. Put T34/76 in T3 (T4 and T3) T34 can only be built in
T3 (for 100 fuel) once you've built T4 (where it can be built for 90 fu).
Allows for quicker spamming of T34/76 if fuel is available, good to recup
losses. And SU76 has much less chance of being spammed.

(On T34, Soviet factories cost way more than OST factories, and it does
not bring T34 in-play sooner either).

SU76 : Buff it and give it more pop : Remove it from game, and put SU85
in T3. SU85 don't get spammed.
SU76 : Make it weaker but reduce cost. Would still be spammed. It's like
Maxim (Weaker than norm, so has to be mega-spammed).

Maybe make it's vet 1 "Barrage" ? I never use Focus on SU76.
- Barrage during DEV Mod was 35 mu per barrage. Not 10. Zis-3 Barrage was 60 mu.
I'd like to change the vet 1 on SU-85 to APBC ammo (Maybe giving it stun instead of focus)

- SU76 is quasi the price of the T34/76
- StuIIIG is quasi same price/comes out at same time as SU76.
- StuIIIG has more health, more armor, has an MG. Does 160 dmg. Has Stun.
- SU76 has less armor, less health, no MG, no Stun. Does 120 dmg.

- StuIIIG can solo heavies w vet. SU76 cannot Solo any medium tank or up.

Buff it but raise it's pop ? But then you might as well put SU85 in T3.

I have an idea.

Put SU76 in T4. Put T34/76 in T3 (T4 and T3) T34 can only be built in
T3 (for 100 fuel) once you've built T4 (where it can be built for 90 fu).
Allows for quicker spamming of T34/76 if fuel is available, good to recup
losses. And SU76 has much less chance of being spammed.

(On T34, Soviet factories cost way more than OST factories, and it does
not bring T34 in-play sooner either).

SU76 : Buff it and give it more pop : Remove it from game, and put SU85
in T3. SU85 don't get spammed.
SU76 : Make it weaker but reduce cost. Would still be spammed. It's like
Maxim (Weaker than norm, so has to be mega-spammed).

Maybe make it's vet 1 "Barrage" ? I never use Focus on SU76.
- Barrage during DEV Mod was 35 mu per barrage. Not 10. Zis-3 Barrage was 60 mu.
I'd like to change the vet 1 on SU-85 to APBC ammo (Maybe giving it stun instead of focus)

yea lets blantly lie and ignore tiers (i love how katitof only spreges on axis fanboy while i have to do both)

- SU76 is quasi the price of the T34/76
- StuIIIG is quasi same price/comes out at same time as SU76.
- StuIIIG has more health, more armor, has an MG. Does 160 dmg. Has Stun.
- SU76 has less armor, less health, no MG, no Stun. Does 120 dmg.

- StuIIIG can solo heavies w vet. SU76 cannot Solo any medium tank or up.

Buff it but raise it's pop ? But then you might as well put SU85 in T3.

I have an idea.

Put SU76 in T4. Put T34/76 in T3 (T4 and T3) T34 can only be built in
T3 (for 100 fuel) once you've built T4 (where it can be built for 90 fu).
Allows for quicker spamming of T34/76 if fuel is available, good to recup
losses. And SU76 has much less chance of being spammed.

Hmm if I ignore every positive trait of the SU76 like range, fuel cost, penetration, and barrage, it sure sounds UP.