Crocodile is useless in team games since patch

KV-8 can kill ost P4 with some RNG luck, why Churchill would not?
And it still takes ages for both.
You would need to be AFK to lose P4 to Churchill(literally any variant of it).

Also contrary to what you seem to believe here, P4 is not a super heavy tank.
If you would stop chanting 'krupp stahl' and would use more common sense, that would be great.

example: https://youtu.be/cu664cvgcRc?t=2205

church needed only 16sec and 4 hits to kill a vet2 P4. he misses one time...but all hits penetratet. while losing only 35% healt.

yeah..ages..you are right

Also contrary to what you seem to believe here, P4 is not a super heavy tank.
If you would stop chanting 'krupp stahl' and would use more common sense, that would be great.

this forum show you one thing again and again: the superior armor from axis tanks. popular opinion: p4 have superior armor and every thing bounces hard on them.

but when you play the game...you realized: the armor isnt that superior.

this forum show you one thing again and again: the superior armor from axis tanks. popular opinion: p4 have superior armor and every thing bounces hard on them.

but when you play the game...you realized: the armor isnt that superior.

Please open mod tools or other database, compare P4 armor to other allied meds, then compare it to churchill. Compare guns of the two as well. Make sure to compare churchill crocs gun separately as its not the same as regular churchills.

High armor for allies is far more valuable as axis TDs have only 170 pen at long range while all allied TDs have 200+. In team games, axis armor values are worthless as the only armor that allies ever get are TDs which completely negate "supposedly superior" axis armor. Stuff like OKW p4 are only worth the fuel in 1v1 games. In team games, you'd rather have a cheap p4 (the ost p4.) Or just outspam the allied TDs with your own TDs. Allied player might get one medium tank and if they lose that, they'll simply spam TDs.

Regarding the nerfs to the croc being overnerfed for teamgames, allied players should realize that panther nerfs are overnerfed for 1v1, so there are problems on both sides. An ideal situation would be to do separate balance for 1v1 and team however, that will never happen.

High armor for allies is far more valuable as axis TDs have only 170 pen at long range while all allied TDs have 200+. In team games, axis armor values are worthless as the only armor that allies ever get are TDs which completely negate "supposedly superior" axis armor. Stuff like OKW p4 are only worth the fuel in 1v1 games. In team games, you'd rather have a cheap p4 (the ost p4.) Or just outspam the allied TDs with your own TDs. Allied player might get one medium tank and if they lose that, they'll simply spam TDs.

Regarding the nerfs to the croc being overnerfed for teamgames, allied players should realize that panther nerfs are overnerfed for 1v1, so there are problems on both sides. An ideal situation would be to do separate balance for 1v1 and team however, that will never happen.

I love the way you pretend panther, ele and JT do not exist.
Also, since you are a little on the slow side, axis armor is not supposed to be any more superior then allied early and mid game is.

I love the way you pretend panther, ele and JT do not exist.
Also, since you are a little on the slow side, axis armor is not supposed to be any more superior then allied early and mid game is.

If panther was a real TD it wouldn't have such a pathetic RoF and accuracy. It's main advantages of mobility and armor are easily neutralized since the 0.75 moving accuracy nerf and the fact that allied TDs are buffed to KT armor levels.

Superheavies were significantly nerfed and are not only doctrinal but in bad doctrines. Breakthrough to be good but after nerfing fussies to volk levels, the doctrine is trash.

If panther was a real TD it wouldn't have such a pathetic RoF and accuracy. It's main advantages of mobility and armor are easily neutralized since the 0.75 moving accuracy nerf and the fact that allied TDs are buffed to KT armor levels.

Superheavies were significantly nerfed and are not only doctrinal but in bad doctrines. Breakthrough to be good but after nerfing fussies to volk levels, the doctrine is trash.

Asymmetrical balance, remember?
Panther isn't exactly slow and fragile either.
Just because you do not have a mirror to SU-85 does not mean you do not have potent AV units that can engage all target but their own hard counters.

and the fact that allied TDs are buffed to KT armor levels.

he mean ISU..which bounce shots like a KT

he mean ISU..which bounce shots like a KT

Actually I meant that allied TDs are buffed to counter KT armor levels. But thanks for elaborating anyways.

Actually I meant that allied TDs are buffed to counter KT armor levels. But thanks for elaborating anyways.

being a real heavy tank require the tank to have both great firepower as well as great armor.

the king tiger, tiger, is2, all packed both powerful gun as well as high armor value.

(the 76mm on the kv-1 was actually a very formidable gun at the time of its introduction, in 1939. the t-34 were designed later than the kv-1).

The range and penetration on the TD is a necessity of the fact they can not match the heavy in a slug match.

the churchill lacked the heavy armament of a heavy tank. the 75mm is "decent/ok" but lack the punch to effectively fight back The heavy. A tiger or king tiger will absolutely stomped the churchill. The panzer4 is about the toughest tank the churchill can win in a slug fight, and the slow speed on the churchill prevent any flanking maneuver.

This means that both the okw and ost have unit that will reliably win against the churchill 1 on 1. By contrast, none of the common allied tank can hope to match the axis heavy in a straight on fight. (pershing and is-2 being limited to doctrine)

the main role of the churchill is really to acting as the meatshield for the Firefly, but even then the churchill's durability is not high enough for this task.

Ive beat a hulled down pv in a slug off with a churchill before... Obviously RNG has a play but its healthpool is of tremendous benifit

Ive beat a hulled down pv in a slug off with a churchill before... Obviously RNG has a play but its healthpool is of tremendous benifit

That's a pretty low standard for what's supposed to be the end cap to the british tech line and british tank arsenal.

unlike all other faction, the british common tanks already represent the best tanks they ever used during the war. No blackprince or centurion to pull out of their ass, even the super pershing would be more historical seeing as how it at least fought.

If the churchill can't even beat the weakest Axis tank by itself, it's not going to be very useful.

One thing is certain. If crocodile gets any buffs, its must be tied to highest british tech.

That's a pretty low standard for what's supposed to be the end cap to the british tech line and british tank arsenal.

unlike all other faction, the british common tanks already represent the best tanks they ever used during the war. No blackprince or centurion to pull out of their ass, even the super pershing would be more historical seeing as how it at least fought.

If the churchill can't even beat the weakest Axis tank by itself, it's not going to be very useful.

The buffs from hulldown make it more than just a simple medium tank, and being able to beat a standard medium hands down isnt a bad thing by anymeans. Should it be contesting panthers ir tigers or something?

The buffs from hulldown make it more than just a simple medium tank, and being able to beat a standard medium hands down isnt a bad thing by anymeans. Should it be contesting panthers ir tigers or something?

hulldown bonus:
-25% inc damage (854 hp effectively)
+25% range
-21% reload time.

I think you overestimate the bonus on the hull down.

the churchill mk 7 had 150 mm of armor on both the hull and the turret. It would have been a difficult tank even for the panther to crack, although the panther would still have the advantage.

(the jumbo had similar effective thickness.)

The chuchill should lose to the panther but the fight should take a while. I suggested 1280 hp 320 armor in the past and I still stay by the value. HP of a KT with the armor of a panther. (maybe size 20-22)


Right now it's 1400 HP 240 HP target size 26.

One thing is certain. If crocodile gets any buffs, its must be tied to highest british tech.

and the croc was just a field modification of the mk7, with the same gun and armor. Naturally the croc should be tied to hammer/anvil.

@firesparks what i saod was the hull down p4 was more than ~~just~~ a medium tank. 2 extra shots over any medium (an extra shot over a panther or 85) while also shooing faster...
And a panther already takes a long time to kill the church because of its health pool. 320 armour and 1280hp for a no limit tank that has fireflies behind it would be far too much....

@firesparks what i saod was the hull down p4 was more than ~~just~~ a medium tank. 2 extra shots over any medium (an extra shot over a panther or 85) while also shooing faster...
And a panther already takes a long time to kill the church because of its health pool. 320 armour and 1280hp for a no limit tank that has fireflies behind it would be far too much....

It's better to have one good tank than two overpriced tank of dubious quality.

and we are talking about one of the slowest tank in the game with a 75mm gun. It's a king tiger without the 240 damage ultra penetration cannon. 1280 hp and 320 armor isn't even up to the king tiger's 1280 hp and 375 armor.

The Churchill's one job is to push and absorb the damage from stuff like the jagdtiger, elephant, king tiger, and panther while the FF fight back. Unless The british have infinite munition the FF's dps isn't that great for a TD.


The lack of any decent mg also meant the Churchill is only "decent" at killing infantry. The croc have better anti-infantry but it lack the smoke and is much more expensive than the regular mk 7.

But its job is to be a meat shield. It currently DOES do that, its gun is enough of a threat to draw fire as well. It functions as a better meat shield than the kv-1 ever did and it does that because of its health. If need be give it the same treatment as the kv (less nominal health but a rec damage modifier) so ot can get back at it a bit faster, although "combat" "engineers" arnt able to increase their repair speeds in any way but vet unlike sappers so that may be imba

...
The lack of any decent mg also meant the Churchill is only "decent" at killing infantry. The croc have better anti-infantry but it lack the smoke and is much more expensive than the regular mk 7.
...

Churchill has a main gun ,4 mg (vet 1) and Grenades. It can kill infantry better than other tanks.