The OKW Puma

I would say thats a pretty pedantic response. Try to predict the outcome of 66% odds.

Ok.

I am now using my oracle skills to predict that 66% will translate to 2 out of 3 shots penetrating on average.

You have literally a vid going round the forums with Puma murdering Pershing at around 20 range or less, frontally.

The exception does not prove the rule. And you do know that a Jackson is not the same unit as a Pershing; right?

Ok.

I am now using my oracle skills to predict that 66% will translate to 2 out of 3 shots penetrating on average.

Hue hue hue. You know damned well how to interpret what was said, unless you truly are incapable.

Try predicting which of those 2 out of 3.

If it's still too hard, try flipping a coin and determine how often you can correctly predict the outcome. The coin flip is 50/50. Your ability to correctly predict the outcome is NOT the same 50/50.

If you are still tracking: if a puma shot bounces, it doesn't change the outcome of the next shots penetration.

A puma attacking a Pershing frontally without using aimed shot very little chance of winning even if its using "heat".

The chance to both hit and penetrate are very low.

Rest is RNG. An isolated incident says nothing about that balance of the unit.

On another issue talking about DPS for TDs without talking about the target is very misleading.

The graph included is vs a T-34/77 vs a armor with high armor value it would be completely different.

If it's still too hard, try flipping a coin and determine how often you can correctly predict the outcome. The coin flip is 50/50.

The coin could still fall off edge and there's variables due to weight on each side. This also doesn't take into account the entity who throws the coin nor the environment

Yeah i'm been pedantic

really low chance if u want u can do the math 300 FA vs 120/160 pen + 30% pen and 0.5 moving acc
and the pershing missed all his shoots with 0.75 moving acc just a lucky streak
but u can play heartstone if u want more rng clownfiesta

TBH, i was amused at first for that lucky chance, but then i dig in and realised it's not as unlikely for the scenario of a vet 5 Heat Puma killing a vet 0 Pershing. The specific scenario on which it doesn't take any damage on top of it is rare though.

Puma is vet 5. Get's 20% acc + 10% range (not sure if it helps). Fires 7 shots, 1 normal, 1 from aimed shot and 5 from heat. The first 3 deflect at max range. The other 4 pens (1 far, 3 mid/close). Calculating accuracy is by far more complicated since you can't really calculate scatter into it. For simplicity sake just take into account the 5 heat shots.

1/2- Far and still: 0.025 * 24 * 1.2 = +0.72 (cause it's closer than max range since Pershing can fire back)
3/4- Mid and move: 0.0375 * 24 * 1.2 * 0.5 = +0.54 (it looks a bit closer than 2 soviet sandbag range for the 4th shot)
5- Mid/close still: +100%

Penetration:
1/2: +35% Compound chance for 1 out of 2 to pen is +45.5%
3/5: ±60% each. 3 out of 3 at that pen is around 21.6%

Pershing:
1st: 28% to miss (18 x 0.04)
2nd: 40% to miss (0.045 x 18 x 0.75)
3rd: it's the HVAP round, which is a skill shot.

Not saying that i'll face head on a Pershing with a Puma but put context (overextended alone chasing Pershing), add micro into the mix (Puma can wiggle with 10 range, shooting at least 6 shots with heat for 200dmg) and been mobile and having smoke, you could at least take half HP from the Pershing and then escape if the Pershing lands 1 or 2 hits.

From a situation which seems at first like 1 out 100, analysing it, looks more like 1 out of 5 or more.

Ontopic: wouldn't it be more productive that instead of discussing labels (flanker, kiter, recon, tank destroyer, tank hunter, etc.) just discuss how it's used ingame ? AKA, you make a Puma to preventively or proactively kill light vehicles, bully lone single damaged squads. And while the game drags on if you are either locked on mech tech or your mid game Puma survives, you can deal with medium tanks, specially with vet.

CoH is all about taking opportunities when on sight. Puma can do a lot of things, but not at all times. Puma against mediums, is like PTRS against them. You don't really expect to kill them, but if the chance appears, you might as well take it.

...

In order to do damage a Puma shot needs to both hit and penetrate which you have to multiply their probabilities.

For instance if I use your numbers the chance of the first shot doing damage is 0.72x0.455 = 32%.

So I think you calculation are a bit off.

You analogy with PTRS is also a bit off since PTRS will do damage almost guaranteed since they have deflection damage and high chance to hit.

Ontopic: wouldn't it be more productive that instead of discussing labels (flanker, kiter, recon, tank destroyer, tank hunter, etc.) just discuss how it's used ingame ?

WOULDN'T IT??

Ontopic: wouldn't it be more productive that instead of discussing labels (flanker, kiter, recon, tank destroyer, tank hunter, etc.) just discuss how it's used ingame ?

OK, IMO

Flanker - Ok, while it does have speed and sight to move on the flanks fast, the puma is a bit weak when on its own. It is useful late game for hunting down rocket artillery, but you will probably lose it in the process.
Kiter - Good, Despite its low accuracy (which can somewhat be negated by issuing a stop command before firing) and pen, it works pretty well as kiter. I would only really call it good once it gets to vet 2/3 when it gets it accuracy and damage bonuses.
Recon - OK, while it does have a 50 sight range to match its 50 gun range, I wouldn't classify it as having good recon abilities. It still is outraged by at guns which can fire out of its sight and it's far too valuable to waste on scouting for units, especially when vet 1 kuebels and IR halftracks are available. Also its detection was recently nerfed to only detect vehicles; I have never seen this have a noticeable effect.
Tank hunter - Good, it can use its mobility range and smoke to put pressure on most medium tanks that are harassing your capping units. In essence it can harass it back, either killing it while it is unsupported or forcing it to stay where it has support.
Tank destroyer - OK, when it comes to destroying tanks I find the puma sometime lacking, especially when it comes to heavier vehicles. While yes it is able to put the hurt on medium tanks, it is far too risky for it to actually dive in and ensure the kill.
Sniper Counter - OK, I included this one as well. The puma's vet one aimed shot is OKW's only real sniper counter (other than map dependant soft counter JLI).

The puma is an expensive light vehicle with that has great utility and veterancy, but has bad accuracy, good range and low pen. It can scale well into the late game, but out of the gate, it isn't that much stronger than the 50 fuel AEC or the 60 fuel (iirc) stuart, units that have much better AI ability. IMO its a good unit to get, if a light vehicle is built. If not it kinda wastes the mid game doing little damage, and when a medium tank gets out, struggles since it lacks the mid game vet it would have gotten from fighting light vehicles to be wholly effective. All in all I would say the Puma is one of the last cost effective OKW units that remains to have good 5 vet levels that are actually better than allied counterparts.

OK, IMO

Flanker - Ok, while it does have speed and sight to move on the flanks fast, the puma is a bit weak when on its own. It is useful late game for hunting down rocket artillery, but you will probably lose it in the process.
Kiter - Good, Despite its low accuracy (which can somewhat be negated by issuing a stop command before firing) and pen, it works pretty well as kiter. I would only really call it good once it gets to vet 2/3 when it gets it accuracy and damage bonuses.
Recon - OK, while it does have a 50 sight range to match its 50 gun range, I wouldn't classify it as having good recon abilities. It still is outraged by at guns which can fire out of its sight and it's far too valuable to waste on scouting for units, especially when vet 1 kuebels and IR halftracks are available. Also its detection was recently nerfed to only detect vehicles; I have never seen this have a noticeable effect.
Tank hunter - Good, it can use its mobility range and smoke to put pressure on most medium tanks that are harassing your capping units. In essence it can harass it back, either killing it while it is unsupported or forcing it to stay where it has support.
Tank destroyer - OK, when it comes to destroying tanks I find the puma sometime lacking, especially when it comes to heavier vehicles. While yes it is able to put the hurt on medium tanks, it is far too risky for it to actually dive in and ensure the kill.
Sniper Counter - OK, I included this one as well. The puma's vet one aimed shot is OKW's only real sniper counter (other than map dependant soft counter JLI).

The puma is an expensive light vehicle with that has great utility and veterancy, but has bad accuracy, good range and low pen. It can scale well into the late game, but out of the gate, it isn't that much stronger than the 50 fuel AEC or the 60 fuel (iirc) stuart, units that have much better AI ability. IMO its a good unit to get, if a light vehicle is built. If not it kinda wastes the mid game doing little damage, and when a medium tank gets out, struggles since it lacks the mid game vet it would have gotten from fighting light vehicles to be wholly effective. All in all I would say the Puma is one of the last cost effective OKW units that remains to have good 5 vet levels that are actually better than allied counterparts.

the AEC is 60 fuel and the stuart is 70 fuel.

the AEC is 60 fuel and the stuart is 70 fuel.

yeah..and both can kill the puma (stun shoot/ thread shots) while t70 has much better AI.