About Jacksons

I understand your idea of making the jackson the last hope in terms of AT for the USF. But the fact is that USF always has a lot of AT in their infantry, plus a well balanced AT gun, plus almost always floating on resources (specially in team games).

That's relics and modders idea.
All factions must have cost effective TD that needs to fight even the heaviest of opponents armor.
And that well balanced ATG is still weakest ATG in game by a long shot in terms of penetration and is not reliable against heavies at all.

Resource float is hardly an argument, everyone floats in 4s.

Jackson doesnt need to be that powerfull to snipe KT or JT, because you invalide all of the others axis tanks aswell, specially OST: Panther, Tiger, P4, Stugs.

Hence Jackson penetration went up, but damage and therefore DPS went down, its stronger vs Tiger and KT, but it needs more shots and therefore time to kill Panther as well as leaves meds on more then 40 hp after 3 hits.

So as long as there are 300+ armor units on either side and allies do not have Panther like tank, "standard" TDs need to do the job, but they pay for ability to engage heavies with their DPS.

Remember how vet3 SU-85 was a murder machine against everything mechanized? Now its MUCH weaker against meds, but MUCH better against heavies. Same happened to Jackson and Firefly was always like that bar its first iteration of tulips.

Actually I think Relic did a little too far on the Jacksons, making them too expensive and tough for their purpose. They should be nerfed a little but still better than prior to December patch.

That is to start with, health is decreased to 560, same as the StuG III, but cost is decreased to 380 manpower & 135 fuel. Basically, a middle ground pre and post December patch.

All factions must have cost effective TD that needs to fight even the heaviest of opponents armor.

Of course that every unit in the game must have a counter. But in this case there is no counter for the counter. You know what I mean!! There is no counter for the Jackson. It is really hard to kill em with that new HP buff and incredible moving acc, DPS and speed.

Of course that every unit in the game must have a counter. But in this case there is no counter for the counter. You know what I mean!! There is no counter for the Jackson. It is really hard to kill em with that new HP buff and incredible moving acc, DPS and speed.

You're trying to hammer a rock with scissors.
Use some paper.
AT infantry, PaK creep, super heavy TDs, even bum rush with meds who have higher DPS then jacksons and will overwhelm them for cost.

Panther isn't ultimate answer for everything mechanized, so don't try to use it against everything, jacksons are supposed and intended counter for panther, not the other way around.

The balance team really wanted the jackson to keep its original damage. Imagine the current jackson with 200 damage. That was the plan.

More importantly what they really wanted, and got, was that elefants and jagdtigers had their damage reduced to 300 so that they were effectively neutered.

This shifted the AT burden much more onto the existing crutch units (stugs) and tigers and panthers (in a good spot, apparently.)

The problem mostly just moved around from where it was prior to patch. Axis always had to pick certain doctrines for lategame AT that was hard to effectively counter.

Now they don't really have that option, and USF could counter that strat if it were still viable.

Old jackson with 560 health worked pretty nicely, but was never officially tested or considered.

You're trying to hammer a rock with scissors.
Use some paper.
AT infantry, PaK creep, super heavy TDs, even bum rush with meds who have higher DPS then jacksons and will overwhelm them for cost.

Panther isn't ultimate answer for everything mechanized, so don't try to use it against everything, jacksons are supposed and intended counter for panther, not the other way around.

if they had range or speed over jackson maybe ?

if they had range or speed over jackson maybe ?

So feel free to use PaKs to create no-go zone.
If jackson can shoot at it, then pak can shoot back.

So feel free to use PaKs to create no-go zone.
If jackson can shoot at it, then pak can shoot back.

well it does not work like that, they have an aim time and the jackson is fast enough to escape the area, that's why making the range 55 would give at-guns the ability to counter

So feel free to use PaKs to create no-go zone.
If jackson can shoot at it, then pak can shoot back.

if they had range or speed over jackson maybe ?

To expand on what Katitof said, you don't have to kill a jackson to counter it. IE building paks do Counter the jackson but not just in kill potential but also in zoning potential.

Having paks cover a medium tank essentially neutralize the Jacksons ability to counter a medium. No sane person is going to drive a jackson into a pak wall that they know is there. Same goes with AT infantry moving infront of a medium.

If they are dumb enough to move into a double pak range well double pak plus a medium should easily take care of a Jackson.

Another good counter is a TD plus Medium/at gun.

To expand on what Katitof said, you don't have to kill a jackson to counter it. IE building paks do Counter the jackson but not just in kill potential but also in zoning potential.

Having paks cover a medium tank essentially neutralize the Jacksons ability to counter a medium. No sane person is going to drive a jackson into a pak wall that they know is there. Same goes with AT infantry moving infront of a medium.

If they are dumb enough to move into a double pak range well double pak plus a medium should easily take care of a Jackson.

Another good counter is a TD plus Medium/at gun.

look up ^^

That's relics and modders idea.
All factions must have cost effective TD that needs to fight even the heaviest of opponents armor.
And that well balanced ATG is still weakest ATG in game by a long shot in terms of penetration and is not reliable against heavies at all.

Ok I'm curious why people have such an issue with using the USF AT gun. For starters it's pretty cheap and can be acquired without going Captain if you go Airborne or Recon Support (both of which are very good doctrines this patch so you're certainly not gimping yourself with those). It has the largest cone of fire and the rate of fire will do wonders against mediums and can get good chunks of health off from heavier tanks if it gets some rear armor shots.

Granted the base penetration (assuming the stat site is up to date) is only 140 compared to the Pak40s 200.

Then again the Pak doesn't have the AP round ability that should give it 50% extra penetration which would make the penetration 210 which is far from lackluster in my opinion. I found that the M1 penetrated a Tiger frontally pretty reliably from max range + the self spotting and increased range it gets with vet 1 is very useful.

If I can pick for example between stealing a raketen and an M1 i would pick M1 every single time. I will gladly pay a minuscule amount of munitions (and USF is not a munitions starved faction to begin with so I see no problem in paying for penetration) if it nets me a proper AT gun. It may not always penetrate from max range but it will stay relatively safe compared to certain gimmick AT gun that gets instagibbed by the things its meant to counter and is such fun and joy to play against/with...

I don't know what people expect from an AT gun that has specifically been given a munition ability that is meant to help dealing with heavier armor and not utilizing it when fighting heavy tanks. In its price range it performs its job well enough and will scale into late game with its utility and vet. And yes I admit it is more micro intensive than just A-moving double 6-pounders but I think that issue can be overcome with L2P and smoke and flank. Kappa

Ok I'm curious why people have such an issue with using the USF AT gun.

Check its penetration, check penetration of all other ATGs and check axis late game tanks armor value and you might solve this mystery.

Check its penetration, check penetration of all other ATGs and check axis late game tanks armor value and you might solve this mystery.

Like I said, the AP rounds will help with that. (Back to the I don't know what people expect part) I will not build an M1 to hardcounter a JT but I will gladly use a vetted up one with AP rounds ability clicked beforehand to make a dent to it and make it vulnerable to snares or Jackson-in-a-good-spot flanks with Thunderbolts (that will do heavy damage to a heavy tank on the first pass which is almost impossible to shoot down in time) It's main duty then is to scare away the axis mediums giving Jacksons the opportunity to focus on heavier priority targets.

" M1 isn't ultimate answer for everything mechanized, so don't try to use it against everything, jacksons are supposed and intended counter for JT, not the other way around." This seems fitting here.

You are aware that US ATGs do not start at vet1 and decrewing is quite common in late game?

Like I said, the AP rounds will help with that. (Back to the I don't know what people expect part) I will not build an M1 to hardcounter a JT but I will gladly use a vetted up one with AP rounds ability clicked beforehand to make a dent to it and make it vulnerable to snares or Jackson-in-a-good-spot flanks with Thunderbolts (that will do heavy damage to a heavy tank on the first pass which is almost impossible to shoot down in time) It's main duty then is to scare away the axis mediums giving Jacksons the opportunity to focus on heavier priority targets.

" M1 isn't ultimate answer for everything mechanized, so don't try to use it against everything, jacksons are supposed and intended counter for JT, not the other way around." This seems fitting here.

because set USF players dont wna use combined arms. Why use combined arms when u can blob ur way to victory. Its easier and more effective to spam riflemen to deal with inf and get jacksons to deal with every single axis tank

because set USF players dont wna use combined arms. Why use combined arms when u can blob ur way to victory. Its easier and more effective to spam riflemen to deal with inf and get jacksons to deal with every single axis tank

What if I told you one can do both

You are aware that US ATGs do not start at vet1 and decrewing is quite common in late game?

You are aware that ATGs do not start at vet1 and decrewing any 4 model AT gun is quite common in late game. That is not a USF exclusive thing im afraid, micro.exe will help with that though. Decrewing will not remove the AP round ability luckily.

It's USF specific this thread because otherwise the argument to rely on paks to counter jacksons lategame doesn't hold water.

You are aware that ATGs do not start at vet1 and decrewing any 4 model AT gun is quite common in late game. That is not a USF exclusive thing im afraid, micro.exe will help with that though. Decrewing will not remove the AP round ability luckily.

Its a great medium counter but it feels lackluster most of the time against heavies. Maybe it gets left behind in the LT m20/halftrack meta with USF rn.

I understand your idea of making the jackson the last hope in terms of AT for the USF. But the fact is that USF always has a lot of AT in their infantry, plus a well balanced AT gun, plus almost always floating on resources (specially in team games).

Jackson doesnt need to be that powerfull to snipe KT or JT, because you invalide all of the others axis tanks aswell, specially OST: Panther, Tiger, P4, Stugs.

the US 57mm isn't suited to fight heavy tanks. Their base penetration is much lower than the pak40 and only a bit better with the Tungsten round.

and the bazookas are not schreck. 110-130 penetration is not going to deter axis german heavy.

Historically the 90mm was already the most powerful gun field in large number by the US. Unless the US get the super pershing (only 1 was ever used), the jackson is the best the US have.

Like I said, the AP rounds will help with that. (Back to the I don't know what people expect part) I will not build an M1 to hardcounter a JT but I will gladly use a vetted up one with AP rounds ability clicked beforehand to make a dent to it and make it vulnerable to snares or Jackson-in-a-good-spot flanks with Thunderbolts (that will do heavy damage to a heavy tank on the first pass which is almost impossible to shoot down in time) It's main duty then is to scare away the axis mediums giving Jacksons the opportunity to focus on heavier priority targets.

" M1 isn't ultimate answer for everything mechanized, so don't try to use it against everything, jacksons are supposed and intended counter for JT, not the other way around." This seems fitting here.

57mm with tungsten: 195-210-225. reload time 4.05
pak40: 190-200-210 reload time: 4.55


You will drain your munition if you try to use the tungsten every time an axis tank get in range, and it's hardly a sure-pen against the big cat anyway.