Solution to hmg spam

As you might now last patch tried to reduce a bit the hmg spam strat unsuccessfully so and I think there is a way to easily nerf this strat. Why don't team weapons just cost something along the lines of 30/35 manpower to reinforce and why does soviet team weapons have six models? I mean isn't enough that all soviet infantry has 6 models? do team weapons really need to have 6 models?

What are your thoughts about this? What weakness would you guys give to this strat?

Hmg spam is not exactly an issue this patch. Maxim and DShK, which were the only mgs that could be effectively spammed recently, got nerfed a lot and are not as potent as before any more. They also got nerfed by reinforcement cost and are now the most expensive to reinforce mgs in the game. All the other mgs get the 25% reinforcement discount.

As for 6 men squads and team weapons: this is one of the core design decisions behind soviet factions and it is going to stay here.

Hmg spam is not exactly an issue this patch. Maxim and DShK, which were the only mgs that could be effectively spammed recently, got nerfed a lot and are not as potent as before any more. They also got nerfed by reinforcement cost and are now the most expensive to reinforce mgs in the game. All the other mgs get the 25% reinforcement discount.

The patch didn't solve anything, the first weeks players stopped going for maxim spam because of the other changes (see if they were worth and probably were bored of the same strat all the time) but now you see more and more the maxim spam coming back. Brosras does it in 2v2's, zarok and price do in 1v1's just to name a few, don't get me wrong it is a legit strat but at the moment there is no drawback in this strat. Btw nerfed a lot? maxim got bigger ark of fire, has standard suppression, still has 6 models (survivability goes off the roof) and the manpower to reiforce is 20. Are you saying that before the reiforce was even lower? the mortar and the at gun cost 15 to reinforce too. This leads to going for 4/5 maxims and then, because you float so much manpower because you dont lose models because you suppress the infantry and even if you lose models they are so cheap to reinforce, you just get 2/3 guards, that can counter anything you put on the field when blobed, and you basically won the game...

As for 6 men squads and team weapons: this is one of the core design decisions behind soviet factions and it is going to stay here.

I understand that but bad design decisions have to go, 6 man elite squads and core infantry are already pretty unique they dont need the support weapons to have 6 models.

Just to give a better idea I just watched a cast on tric's twitch were price went hmg spam with wehr and guess what? it isnt as broken because precisely they have 4 models and even with the halftrack always reinforcing it is a hard strat to pull off as axis. If they had more models it would be a bit easier to hold the ground.

Originally maxim was a 240mp mg with 90mp full reinforcement cost, just like mg42. This is the value that comes from general reinforcement cost rule which says that full reinforcement cost is half of unit cost, with additional 25% discount for team weapons. A few patches ago they got changed up to 260mp without changing reinforcement cost, as additional 20mp is charged for the weapon, not the crew. Then maxim and DShK got the reinforcement cost changed from 90mp for full squad to 120mp. It was a hard hit but people still spammed them so their performance has been lowered to the point where there is nothing in maxim that is better compared to other mgs other than survivability. And even that is questionable becouse increased reinforcement cost just couses the bleed. So in my opinion after nerfing the performance they should have reduced reinforcement cost back to standard levels.

As for the people who still use maxim spam: first they are widely known as masters of this strategy, they would use it no matter what, second, they don't get very good value for their skill using that, they could have gone much further by creating a new build based on current unit performance.

Originally maxim was a 240mp mg with 90mp full reinforcement cost, just like mg42. This is the value that comes from general reinforcement cost rule which says that full reinforcement cost is half of unit cost, with additional 25% discount for team weapons.

If you're not making that up it's just stupid thinking, probably relic overthinking things. "general reinforcement cost rule" LUL

Then maxim and DShK got the reinforcement cost changed from 90mp for full squad to 120mp.

Wow such a big change, from 15 manpower to 20 manpower reinforcement cost... It clearly isn't enough. Team weapons are supposed to be supported by infantry and the higher reinforce cost would be a way to be punished for spamming them without support or for being out flanked.

And even that is questionable becouse increased reinforcement cost just couses the bleed. So in my opinion after nerfing the performance they should have reduced reinforcement cost back to standard levels.

The only thing that was nerfed basically was the vet 1 ability and it wasn't really nerfed it was just replaced. As I said before they have standard suppression, they got bigger cone of fire, they have 6 models and you are telling me that they should have lowered their reinforcement cost to 15?! So that players float even more manpower to get even more/faster elite infantry from the commander?

As for the people who still use maxim spam: first they are widely known as masters of this strategy, they would use it no matter what, second, they don't get very good value for their skill using that, they could have gone much further by creating a new build based on current unit performance.

It's not hard to pull these strats tho, are you saying they are masters of A-moving? :v
Gone further in what way? They already have the perfect build order... get 4/5 maxims then get 3/4 guard squads that can reck mediums and infantry alike and then probably get t34-76 and that would be game.

...This is the value that comes from general reinforcement cost rule which says that full reinforcement cost is half of unit cost, with additional 25% discount for team weapons...

The rule is no longer in affect for infatry since the latest patch have changed the reinforcement cost, reinforcement time and build time of majority of unit units (that had their cost altered).

The rule was not in affect even before when it come to HMG, since the reinforcement cost of maxim and Dshk was 15 while the unit costed 240 and 300 and the HMG-34 was one of most expensive to reinforce (even more than HMG-42)while being the cheaper.

...Hmg spam is not exactly an issue this patch. Maxim and DShK, which were the only mgs that could be effectively spammed recently, got nerfed a lot and are not as potent as before any more....

If it is used regularly and people are having trouble countering it is an issue.

In the last patch the maxim was actually buffed:
Show Spoiler

Only the Dshk that was clearly OP was nerfed.

Finally the idea of comparing cost of fully reinforcing squad is flawed, if one want to compared reinforcement cost vs small arm one has to compare by EHP (effective HP)of entity and vs explosive weapons HP of entity.

Never had a single problem with MG spam since the last patch.
90-95% of all Sovs in 1v1 go T1 as it would be too devastating to miss out on the extremely strong Penals and Snipers.

MG42 can't be spammed. Vickers can't be spammed. 50cal can't be spammed. MG34 can't be spammed.

/Thread.

Never had a single problem with MG spam since the last patch.
90-95% of all Sovs in 1v1 go T1 as it would be too devastating to miss out on the extremely strong Penals and Snipers.

MG42 can't be spammed. Vickers can't be spammed. 50cal can't be spammed. MG34 can't be spammed.

/Thread.

Good point there! I think this is about teamgames tbh

I will only talk about maxims, because it is obvious, that other faction's MG spam cannot work.

Against Ostheer it is an obvious losing strategy, because your maxims will only turn into meat for his 2 mortars (which will eventually turn vet 3 and bleed you even more).

It can theoretically work against OKW, but really only in the theory. Now OKW have incendiary grenades from minute 0, so you cannot hope for fast forward garrison grab.

Later on the OKW player will easily have smoke, flamethrowers, incendiary Leigh rounds and short range volks (with smoke nades) so goodbye maxim spam .

We all know that picking Feuersturm right now is not a handicap anymore, especially with such a strong Hetzer and really good OKWish lategame.


So in 1v1 this balance issue in non-existant against competent player

It's not hard to pull these strats tho, are you saying they are masters of A-moving? :v
Gone further in what way? They already have the perfect build order... get 4/5 maxims then get 3/4 guard squads that can reck mediums and infantry alike and then probably get t34-76 and that would be game.

It's the old "just because a pro does it, doesn't mean it's good argument".

Apperently, my skill with maxims allows me to overcome it's inherent weakness. Hilarious to think I can beat guy's like giap based on my skill, and not the overpowered a-move tactic I use.

@hector @highfive: you're both cordially invited to 1vs1 me.

Never had a single problem with MG spam since the last patch.
90-95% of all Sovs in 1v1 go T1 as it would be too devastating to miss out on the extremely strong Penals and Snipers.

MG42 can't be spammed. Vickers can't be spammed. 50cal can't be spammed. MG34 can't be spammed.

/Thread.

It can be spammed, just gotta do it right Kappa

@hector @highfive: you're both cordially invited to 1vs1 me.

Show Spoiler

Nah, but honestly, telling someone to 1v1 them is absolutely the worst way online to prove somebody that your arguments are valid.
Maybe you'd defeat us, probably you would as I am Rank 14 ingame AT BEST TIMES, and never better than 200 on the leaderboards, but would this then be a proven fact that you're right? I don't think so.

Stating that you defeated >INSERT NAME OF PRO PLAYER HERE< doesn't either.

Give us arguments, replays and stuff, a basis we can talk about, otherwise it is just hot steam coming out of a mouth. Something we have already a lot of on this board.

It can be spammed, just gotta do it right Kappa

Everything can be spammed, but that's the equivalent of 'Everything is a Dildo if you are brave enough'

Give us arguments, replays and stuff, a basis we can talk about, otherwise it is just hot steam coming out of a mouth. Something we have already a lot of on this board.

I've done that in the past plenty of times. To you aswell (even linked a Dane cast of a game of mine).

People just ignore it, or make up excuses (most hilarious the a-formentioned "just because a pro does it, doesn't mean it's OP) and continue on with the same claims about maximspam.

So, the only way to get through to people, is to 1vs1 them.

Everything can be spammed, but that's the equivalent of 'Everything is a Dildo if you are brave enough'

See, we understand it Keepo!

2-3 maxim this spam? omg. What do you then say about 3-4 volks with STG?

Maybe you'd defeat us, probably you would as I am Rank 14 ingame AT BEST TIMES, and never better than 200 on the leaderboards, but would this then be a proven fact that you're right? I don't think so.

Stating that you defeated >INSERT NAME OF PRO PLAYER HERE< doesn't either.

Give us arguments, replays and stuff, a basis we can talk about, otherwise it is just hot steam coming out of a mouth. Something we have already a lot of on this board.

I mean... there are two possible ways one is a top 100 player, one either is a above average player with skill or one abuses broken units/strats so with this in mind I do give much more merit to a player that has, tops, 314 games with a faction and is top 50 than a player that has 840 games and is top 450 or a player that only plays 4v4's and then come to the forums crying about balance.

Vipper did give some arguments and stats and it seems that the maxim was actually buffed... It seems to me that hot steam is coming out of your mouth, as we astablished you don't have a particularly good rank to have credibility nor do you give us stats to defend your statement.

Don't want to burst bubbles here, but maxim spam still works just like it did back in the day.

2-3 maxim this spam? omg. What do you then say about 3-4 volks with STG?

Volks like rifles, infantry sections, conscripts and grens are base line infantry, thus 4 squads is the average number of squads you at least shoud have in the field. Now if you say that the player is using those 4 squads in a blob that would be off topic but still a valid tactic as long as every faction has a viable non commander way to deal with it.

2-3 maxim this spam? omg. What do you then say about 3-4 volks with STG?

3 mg42's is spam
3 mg34's is spam
3 vickers is spam
3 50 calls is spam

but not 3 maxims, thats just normal right?

3 mg42's is spam
3 mg34's is spam
3 vickers is spam
3 50 calls is spam

but not 3 maxims, thats just normal right?

Can I please the document in which it will be described? Since, some people called me a spammer, with 2nd units