Su-76

You may not know this, but the elephant doesn't have a turret, so any unit (shocks in a m3) are free from damage behind it......

Try harder.

Values inferior to 3% (?) are ignored by the game.

In the same way rocket artillery is not a counter to tanks, you can use them as finishers to low HP vehicles. The low armor value of the Su76 means that if it dives chasing a kill on say a medium tank, even a 222 or IR munition can finish it off if damaged.

Values inferior to 3% (?) are ignored by the game.

In the same way rocket artillery is not a counter to tanks, you can use them as finishers to low HP vehicles. The low armor value of the Su76 means that if it dives chasing a kill on say a medium tank, even a 222 or IR munition can finish it off if damaged.

Doesnt some artillery have deflection damage though (iirc katyusha), making it able to actually kill off damaged vehicles.

Or I'm just going senile

think its time to close this troll thread LUL

Just ban this stupid Arty-Ability for SU76 or give the same for Stug.
And get the Prices on ONE Level, it cant be that u cant counter SU76 spam, because u have NO AT with Range, and if u have it, u cant use it because of constant arty bombing.

2vs2 Teamgames make no Sense anymore, u can just hope for retarded Opponents or rage quit, after he has his 3rd SU76.
Its also ridiculous, that this Spam can shoot out a tiger with 3 shots every SU. no bouncing, nothing, just every shot hits, like they have laser-aiming guns.

At maps like Poltawa or Charkow, the game is over with Su76 spam, since they are cheap AND OP at due to their range AND pen.

Easiest way to play: U get 5 conscripts, get 4 SU76, get position between middle star and ur own ammo-point and then u just bomb them, till there is nothing left.
If they attack, no matter, ur cons kill the stupid volks or grens, and if not, one shell from SU76 and its ok. The other 3 Su76 kill the 2 stugs in the meantime, and ur pak has only 2 man with little health left and has to retreat and reinforce.
Easy going, no mortar, no mg will defend that vs these Su76. they dont even need mortars, cause they can bomb everything.

The big problem of this Game is, that EVERY allied unit has some spec abilities, the carrier gets flamer OR damagedealing mg, the sowjet sniper gets flares, the Su76 can arty and do AT as well, the Sherman has diff. Ammotypes, the Firefly has comm to see further.
And the germans, they get Blitzkrieg for tanks, the worst ability of ALL in the game, since they can hit u same as not activated.
or the stug ability? just retarded, because the other one can kill ur stug before it has shot ONE time, if he gets his SU-blob.
Panther? best tank of WW2 gets killed by few shots of a cheap AT gun spam, 185 fuel for nothing.

What as next? Range nerf for Pak, maybe? or just one schreck for Pzgrens,they are sooo OP?
Ah, the Panther has too much health, right?
OKW is unplayable because of the lack of good units like mg or Infantry howitzer at begin, so u cant push enough at start, and will lose late game because of lacking ressources and weak tanks.
it never depends on the damage, its all about range.
and germans have NO range...

And ummm... NO!

isnt the simplest fix is just nerf its pen?

its cheap, comes early, seems like more of a medium tank counter than something u want against heavy armour. bring su85 to kill panthers and tigers.

lower its pen down to midway between t3485 and t34. about 130 pen. there, fixed. good against medium armor but have fun trying to deal with tigers or panthers.

The difference between su-76 and stug is similar to the difference between zis3 and pak40. In both cases the soviet unit can have the additional AI capability by using the barrage, but the german one is much, much better in its primary role - AT.

You forgot to mention the key facts: SU76 has far superior range and penetration to the Stug. It's a highly dubious claim that Stugs are "much much better" at AT. Stugs only marginally out-range enemy tanks, and tend to get hit a fair bit in return, while SU76 has the range and speed to kite endlessly. The inferior penetration of the Stug really starts to show vs premiums and heavies, while the SU76 has pretty obscene pen values for its cost.

PAK, meanwhile has same range as ZIS but is otherwise a superior AT weapon, and ZIS has 6-man and barrage as advantages.

It really isn't a very useful comparison.

Imo, the most useful Nerf would be banning that arty ability. Then u can use the Paks again, but now, u get barraged and destroyed the gear in seconds,u cant even recap it, because its wrecked.
The Zis does the same arty.

Everybody knows it, getting barraged by 5 SU76, which damage u like a hyperspeed-Mortar.

Thx for the nice disputes here, and forget the "stug is OP, need no nerf for SU76" trolls, who didnt bring one argument for this topic.

If they can nerf germans, its all ok for them, but if somebody talks bout balance, they cry like little girls.

Summarizing:

-If we have heavier tanks (Panther) dealing 200dmg with a slower RoF it would give it a place against both this low HP pool vehicles and premium mediums.
-Decreasing far/pen in general so they remain relevant against mediums but not heavier armored vehicles.
-Giving it a proper xp value so it both gives xp and takes simil time to vet as other vehicles.
-Swapping vet 2 with vet 3 damage modifier.

Yep, that would pretty much fix it and it would still be very useful and cost efficient without the spamming potential.

Except thats statistically untrue. A 222 will pen the rear armour of an su76 every time, shocks chance to pen an elefants rear are astronomically lower.

At any rate the point is that even a 222 is a threat to an su76 (or a brace of them) that the soviet player has to respond to. Should they turn to respond they will be unable to barrage your pak or send a volley off into your stug/p4/whatever else.

Dont bitch that such a cheap unit en masse can be effective when you COULD do the same with a cheaper unit still to counter them (yea its a bit more work, ill give yoy that but its a possible counter, or at least a reasonably cheap enough distraction)

Values inferior to 3% (?) are ignored by the game.

Amazing, both of you misread my post and added the sentence "shocks will damage the elephant".
I would call it a strawman if I didn't respect elchino.

The idea that the 222 is a threat to any competent su-76 user is as ludricous as shocks in a m3 hiding behind the elephant Show Spoiler

And I find it hilarious how people defend the su-76 with such zeal while hating on the stug.

So its ok for OST to have a TD that can pound into armor and inf. but the Sovs who has to use a ability for theres that 50% of the time axis inf just walk around of its OP?



Realllly?

So its ok for OST to have a TD that can pound into armor and inf.

Yes it would be OP, but there isnt an OST TD that is good at at and has a barrage/high AOE.

I did not read through all the post but:

A) You know that 1 Stug can kill a panther frontal? Had the case, because i played axis vs axis in automatch to exploit abuser

B) Stug > Su76 vs tanks

--> So its fine that Su76 has the barrage.

Amazing, both of you misread my post and added the sentence "shocks will damage the elephant".
I would call it a strawman if I didn't respect elchino.

The idea that the 222 is a threat to any competent su-76 user is as ludricous as shocks in a m3 hiding behind the elephant Show Spoiler

And I find it hilarious how people defend the su-76 with such zeal while hating on the stug.

If the su76 is trying to not get shot up by your 222 its not barraging your pak. Additionally the main issue with the su76is when its blobbed, and unless the game was patched in the last few hours blobbed armour doesnt move effectively in the least. I dont expect you to solo a pack of su76 with a single 222, but you cam use it to disrupt them. Relative to cost the 222 is your t34. Its enough of a threat they need to account for it but cheap enough to lose if it means securing a kill. You can block with it, its gun is effective against them, especially their rear.

And i never said the su76 doesnt need nerfed (i agree with vipper that a pen reduction and tying barrage behind vet would be a good direction, maybe even tying the zis barrage behind vet too) simply arguing that its ridiculous to only look at the gun stats when comparing the stug and su76 and ignoring that the su76 is THE glass cannon incapable of bouncing anything heavier than a scout car and being unable to take many hits either.

If the su76 is trying to not get shot up by your 222 its not barraging your pak. Additionally the main issue with the su76is when its blobbed, and unless the game was patched in the last few hours blobbed armour doesnt move effectively in the least. I dont expect you to solo a pack of su76 with a single 222, but you cam use it to disrupt them. Relative to cost the 222 is your t34. Its enough of a threat they need to account for it but cheap enough to lose if it means securing a kill. You can block with it, its gun is effective against them, especially their rear.

And i never said the su76 doesnt need nerfed (i agree with vipper that a pen reduction and tying barrage behind vet would be a good direction, maybe even tying the zis barrage behind vet too) simply arguing that its ridiculous to only look at the gun stats when comparing the stug and su76 and ignoring that the su76 is THE glass cannon incapable of bouncing anything heavier than a scout car and being unable to take many hits either.

But you are never going to get close to the su-76 (blobbed or not) because every sov player has guards these days, if not at nades, mines, or some other form of detterent.

In theory, the 222 is a nice distraction, in practice, it's going to die before even getting close to the su-76 (and not neccessary by the hand of said su-76).

There is also the issue of range (50 for stug, 60 for su-76) which means su-76 has alot less to fear.
I'dd rather have it's range reduced to 55 or 50, also making su-86 more unique.

...simply arguing that its ridiculous to only look at the gun stats when comparing the stug and su76 and ignoring that the su76 is THE glass cannon incapable of bouncing anything heavier than a scout car and being unable to take many hits either.

The SU 76 is a "glass cannon" that seldom gets hit by the hammer because it can stay out of range (gun stat)

Not that 140 armor on the StuG gives you that much of a chance, as even the mediums it is supposed to counter has a chance penetrate it like 80% of the time - but it gets into harms way more often as it does not have the 60 range the Su 76 has.

If anything is a glass cannon, its the StuG. It does not has the range to avoid being shot at, it does not have very meaningful armor either, but it packs DPS because it fires fast. It does not have however a clear role. Is it for supporting infantry? Counter light vehicles? Mediums? Heavies? In fact it does it all with varying efficiency, and like the Su 76, it can be even useful against prediums/heavies trough sheer ROF and fairly high Pen, which is the Panthers job (or at least should be, as its ill equipped to do that).

However along the same lines of the SU 76 should be re-balanced, so should be the StuG, as a dedicated light/medium tank killer. Its effective DPS against heavier vehicles should be lowered while maintained more or less against mediums, and probably it would be a good idea to push the slider a bit towards protection. Where all units have a chance of penetration, and most do just standard 160 damage, RoF is the king of DPS, and which is what makes spamming cheap, high RoF units cheese.

So IMO the good way to rebalance the StuG would be to decrease it's DPS, particularly against heavily armored units but increase its survivability. 50 range is OK for the StuG but it works poorly with the low armor values as the units (mediums) can fairly easily overwhelm it via brute force.

i.e. change the StuG as follows
15 % reduction of Rate of Fire
15 % reduction of Penetration
30 % increase of armor (i.e. same level as Pz IV) to compensate

This would reduce the StuG DPS by 30% against heavies (pretty heavy nerf), 15% against mediums and TDs (slight nerf, but its less spam-desirable), but would increase its survivability against light and medium vehicles, unless they flank it. Overall a less cheese unit with a clearly defined role.

P.S. Personally I would love to see some damage increase against units in trenches/buildings/bunkers etc., to give it a bit of historical flavour.

I did not read through all the post but:

A) You know that 1 Stug can kill a panther frontal? Had the case, because i played axis vs axis in automatch to exploit abuser

B) Stug > Su76 vs tanks

--> So its fine that Su76 has the barrage.

SU76 has more range than Stug and also costs less and it´s in a 70f T3 compared to the much more expensive Ost T3. Remove tracking at vet1 and replace it with a 50 munitions barrage ability (so you get the barrage at vet 1 instead of vet 0). Then tracking either needs to go to vet 3 or be removed completly. A 75 fuel TD with 60 range and self spotting ability is a bit much.

SU76 has more range than Stug and also costs less and it´s in a 70f T3 compared to the much more expensive Ost T3. Remove tracking at vet1 and replace it with a 50 munitions barrage ability (so you get the barrage at vet 1 instead of vet 0). Then tracking either needs to go to vet 3 or be removed completly. A 75 fuel TD with 60 range and self spotting ability is a bit much.

I would be fine with getting the ability to vet1.

There is a great replay vonasten vs price crossing in the woods. Su76 vs stug spam. I think romeo casted it on his stream. One hour game. And well the popcap from the stug is...

Stugspam won

I would be fine with getting the ability to vet1.

There is a great replay vonasten vs price crossing in the woods. Su76 vs stug spam. I think romeo casted it on his stream. One hour game. And well the popcap from the stug is...

Stugspam won

Why not increase SU76 pop cap aswell...SU76 spam is the real problem not the unit itself. Increasing the pop-cap slightly is going to make it harder to spam without rendering the unit useless.

This post is also about team-games, not 1v1. I have never encountered SU76 spam in 1v1s.

Why not increase SU76 pop cap aswell...SU76 spam is the real problem not the unit itself. Increasing the pop-cap slightly is going to make it harder to spam without rendering the unit useless.

This post is also about team-games, not 1v1. I have never encountered SU76 spam in 1v1s.

I guess you talk now about stug popcap increase or?

I guess you talk now about stug popcap increase or?

As I said. SU76 pop cap increase. That would solve SU76 spams. After all Panther-"Spams" were fixed in the same way.